We work with hundreds of K-12 faculty from schools all around Silicon Valley each month. If I had to boil down the most common theme that’s come up lately, it’s all about anxiety. In fact, an educator from one of our school partners recently shared that “Anxiety overall has really popped up as a bigger issue.” Grappling with student anxiety is core to the work of school counselors and school psychologists who are part of our Neurodiversity/2e Collaborative. We meet monthly to talk through problems of practice that our members face. In January, a middle school counselor brought a pressing problem for our group to consider: How could her team support students as they process their anxiety when the news feels heavy and the “macro-system” feels unsafe?  Our discussion focused on three main topics: First, how and why are these anxieties experienced differently by neurodivergent and twice-exceptional (2e) students?  Second, what are some actionable strategies that could be used to approach this topic in a way that considers variation in learner needs? Finally, how can we help our students understand different approaches to advocacy and action? Pulling it all together, the answers, ideas, and actionable strategies we brainstormed became an Educator Quick Tip Sheet (link at the bottom of this article) that may be helpful for any school counselor, school psychologist, or other educator considering ways to address today’s climate and the anxiety it can induce across school communities (students, parents, and educators).  We hope this resource serves as a starting point to think about your situation and how you can serve as a guide through turbulent times for your community.  1. Why the Political Climate Hits Neurodivergent 2e Learners Differently The world can feel like a volatile place. For twice-exceptional (2e) and neurodivergent students, the current political climate, specifically concerns around immigration enforcement, can create a unique “perfect storm” of anxiety. These students aren't just “worried about the news” – they are often processing it through a specific neurodivergent lens, and possibly their own community or family’s experiences.  Many are particularly sensitive to social justice issues. They may possess an intense moral compass. Injustice isn’t just a concept; it’s a visceral experience that can lead to significant emotional dysregulation. For neurodivergent and 2e students with a high sense of justice, being “milquetoast” about the realities of change can actually feel like a form of dishonesty. And, the confluence of upheaval creates “systemic anxiety”. Macro-level stresses that span changes in governmental norms, the impacts of artificial intelligence, and other post-pandemic challenges filter down through the community and school, increasing anxiety for the adults in the child’s world, that land squarely on the child. Plus, students are often thinking and talking about issues (like immigration enforcement practices) even when adults don't hear them talking about them. This creates a “hidden” layer of stress that can manifest as unexpected behaviors or withdrawal. Add to this that neurodivergent and 2e children are already more prone to general, situational, or social anxiety , and these students may both be more tuned into what is happening and primed for action, while feeling more stressed than others may expect because of what is happening across our broader society.  2. Actionable Strategies for School Counselors, School Psychologists, and Educators to Benefit All Students The Neurodiversity/2e Collaborative brainstormed specific, practical steps for schools to create safe spaces to talk about these unsettled times. By normalizing that it is okay to feel “off” when the world feels loud, and by providing frameworks to handle disagreement productively, we help all learners, in particular those who are neurodivergent and twice-exceptional, navigate the world with both their sensitivity and their passion intact. Help Students Build a "Fact-Base" for Critical Thinking One of the best ways to combat anxiety is to provide a sense of intellectual control. And while stressful, the issues raised in our current political climate generate authentic situations to learn critical thinking skills. Social-emotional and other lessons can be integrated to help students understand how to gather information, look at it critically, and develop a fact base to ground their emotional experience and social justice instincts.  Use tools like Ground.news  or provide articles with varying perspectives (left-leaning, right-leaning, and neutral). This allows students to use their cognitive strengths to analyze how  information is presented rather than just reacting to headlines. To support teachers who feel vulnerable or unequipped, look for grade-appropriate videos (such as from PBS ) followed by standardized FAQs for educators to use with students. This ensures all students receive consistent, factual information regardless of the classroom they are in. Create “Opt-In” and Private Spaces While it’s important to integrate discussion of how all students are grappling with current events, not every sensitive student wants to engage in-depth in class, in a debate, or in other public spaces, as it can increase their distress. But others will want to dive deeply. Plus, it can be difficult to tell how students feel and what their needs are. Two ways to address this are through:  Lunch Bunches: Host optional lunchtime groups to discuss current events. This gives “high-justice” students a place to dive deep without forcing more sensitive or “internalizing” students to participate. Keep in mind that some students may have intense responses and it’s important to respond appropriately, with supportive statements such as “I see that your sense of justice is really activated right now. Let’s look at how people in history have channeled that feeling into change.” Anonymous Inquiry: Use “Question of the Day” boards or anonymous drop-boxes where students can share what is surprising or scaring them. This allows counselors to take the “pulse” of the student body without putting individuals on the spot. Provide Art as an Emotional Outlet Some students (and even faculty) may feel too overwhelmed for verbal conversation. Some may find that artistic projects provide the outlet they need to process. Provide opportunities for everyone in the community to create art projects to capture their evolving experiences. These projects may allow students to share the heavy emotions they feel around safety, justice, and change, without needing to find the perfect words. Bring in Real-Life Experiences Inviting immigrants, survivors of systemic change, and professionals working in social justice spaces to speak can help students move from abstract fear to a grounded understanding of human resilience, as well as provide concrete ideas about ways to move forward. In addition, it can help give them a sense for how adults cope with big challenges and potential jobs that align with their interests to make a difference.  Manage the “Push-Down” Anxiety Anxiety isn’t limited to students – teachers, staff, parents, and other adults in their lives are feeling it as well, and their anxiety can sometimes filter down to students. Be sure to check the pulse of the adults on campus; if they’re highly anxious about the political climate, the students will absorb it, too. Be sure students know which specific staff members are “safe harbors” for high-intensity political, social justice processing, or calm and quiet spaces. 3. Civic Empowerment: Understanding Ardent Advocacy While educators can use today’s context to teach the importance of peaceful protest, it may be equally vital to acknowledge that history is often moved by those who stand up with a more ardent, uncompromising spirit. (Check out edWeb’s recent session: We Can Teach Hard Things, Like Civil Rights .) To help students understand the various intensities of advocacy, we can look at the different philosophies within the Civil Rights Movement. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. utilized non-violent civil disobedience as a strategic, highly disciplined tool to reveal the “moral tension” of the status quo. On the other hand, Malcolm X offered a more ardent critique, emphasizing self-defense, racial pride, and the idea that freedom should be attained “by any means necessary.” With middle schoolers specifically, we wouldn’t expect a 12-year-old to organize a high-stakes demonstration, but they can grapple with the concept that “peaceful” does not mean “passive.” The activists of the past were incredibly brave and often faced great danger.  By presenting both, we aren't telling students which path to take; we are showing them that advocacy is a spectrum. Some movements focus on building bridges, while others focus on demanding the right to exist. This gives students information to find their voice in a democracy. Learning the mechanics of peaceful protest or how to write a letter to a representative can transform “powerless anxiety” into “purposeful action.” And then consider applying these lessons to the lives of 12-year old, noting that “ardent action” might look like refusing to stay silent when a peer is being targeted, researching the “uncomfortable” parts of history that aren't in the standard textbook, and using their art or writing to speak a truth that others are ignoring. Keep in mind that students come from different family backgrounds with a range of responses to today’s political climate. Regardless, we can help all learners navigate the increased anxiety in our environment, support those neurodivergent and 2e students who feel anxiety more intensely, provide opportunities to learn advocacy strategies, and channel intense emotions into age-appropriate actions. Our goal isn't to keep students in a bubble, but to give them the tools (critical thinking, creative expression, and civic agency) to feel safe outside of it.  Download this Educator Quick Tip Sheet to share a summary of these strategies with your broader educator team: Pulling it all together: Educator Tip Sheet for Supporting Neurodivergent and 2e Students in High-Stakes Times 1. Identify the “Justice Flare-Up” Recognize that for 2e students, a "behavior" is often a "reaction" to perceived injustice. The Look:  Intense focus on news, "checking" behavior, or sudden withdrawal. The Internal State:  High sensitivity to systemic unfairness (e.g., immigration enforcement) can feel like a personal threat or a moral emergency. The Action:  Don't just address the behavior; acknowledge the underlying concern for fairness. 2. Implementation: The “Fact-Base” Framework Curate, Don't Censor:  Provide learners with diverse news sources (e.g., Ground.news ) to analyze media bias. The “Neutral” Starting Point:  Use standardized video snippets (e.g., PBS ) to ground the class in facts before opening up to discussion. This protects teachers from feeling “on the spot.” 3. Create “Pressure Valve” Spaces Opt-In Circles:  High-justice students need to talk; high-anxiety students need a break. Use “Lunch Bunches” or optional SEL breakouts so students can choose their level of engagement. Non-Verbal Channels:  Offer Art stations or anonymous “Question Boxes” for students who find the verbal weight of these topics too heavy to express. 4. Level Up the Advocacy Discussion  The Spectrum of Change:  Discuss the different “volumes” of advocacy. Use the contrast between Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. (non-violent civil disobedience) and Malcolm X (ardent self-defense and systemic critique) to show that change often requires a range of intensities. The "Middle School Pivot":  Frame “Ardent Action” in an age-appropriate way: Upstanding:  Speaking up for a peer in the moment. Researching:  Digging into the “untold” history of marginalized groups. Creative Truth-Telling:  Using projects to highlight issues the world is ignoring.

Parents of twice exceptional (2e) learners often notice early on that their children understand things deeply, even when everyday tasks don’t come easily. Conversations can move quickly into big ideas or detailed interests, yet school participation may be inconsistent from one day to the next. Many families spend time trying to make sense of how both can be true at once. After decades of working closely with highly gifted and 2e families, I have watched this same pattern emerge again and again. The same child who resists one kind of work may stay absorbed in another when the level, pace, or topic fits how they think. What first looks like inconsistency starts to come into focus. When learning meets the learner’s strengths, interests, and preferred ways of thinking, engagement follows. When Ability and Learning Environment Don’t Match Supporting 2e learners often requires looking beyond the academic level itself. Parents frequently notice that a child’s engagement changes depending on their environment. How safe a child feels, whether they experience real connection with others, how manageable the sensory surroundings are, and whether their interests are taken seriously all shape their willingness to participate. When these elements come together, learning naturally occurs. When they do not, it is usually a sign that the environment still needs adjustment so the learner’s strengths can take the lead. When Strengths Are Given Room to Grow I think often of Evan*, whose parents first described him as extraordinarily sensitive and easily overwhelmed in his elementary school classroom. From a very young age, Evan’s intellectual curiosity was unmistakable. At three years old, he asked his parents to explain negative numbers. He had a natural sense of rhythm, an intuitive grasp of mathematical ideas, and an early fascination with how physical systems worked. None of these strengths was visible in his school setting. What teachers noticed instead was a child who became upset easily, struggled with emotional regulation, and shut down under pressure. By second grade, the disconnect had become painful. Evan’s teacher told his parents that he might someday be strong in math if  he could just memorize his math facts for the timed tests. His mother, also an educator, eventually recognized that Evan’s strengths could not shine in that environment because the constant noise, distractions, and pacing of the classroom were overwhelming his nervous system. His parents eventually made the difficult decision to withdraw Evan from school and begin homeschooling, where the learning environment could better fit his sensory needs. Once his learning setting changed, Evan’s strengths emerged quickly and clearly. With learning offered at his own pace and depth through private instruction and small-group classes, Evan soared in mathematics. He soon discovered a deep passion for physics and began taking college-level coursework by the age of ten. Today, Evan is in graduate school studying physics.  I also think of Veera*, a child whose creativity was evident early, even when it was misunderstood. In kindergarten, Veera was frequently corrected for coloring people in rainbow colors. One moment stayed with her for decades. A teacher, frustrated by her choices, asked her in front of the class whether everyone could agree that her mother did not have blue hair. Years later, when Veera recalled this moment, she quietly added that blue was her favorite color and that it made her happy to use it when she was drawing pictures of people who felt joyful to her. Veera was never identified as gifted in school. She struggled academically in ways that were later understood as stealth dyslexia, not discovered until college. Her grades were unremarkable. She never participated in gifted programming. And yet, when she was given space to create, her strengths were unmistakable. Veera’s parents enrolled her in local art classes, where she found social belonging amongst other “creative” friends.  Summer art camps continued to expose Veera to new art forms, where she discovered an interest in abstract painting. One of her instructors, impressed by the depth of her work, encouraged her to enter her first showing at a local library. These affirmations boosted Veera’s self-efficacy. Her parents followed Veera’s lead, supporting her as she sought other art showings and contests. Though she did not win every contest, her motivation and resilience grew with these experiences. Today, one of her most affirming childhood memories remains seeing her abstract painting displayed at the state fair, ribbon attached. Those moments mattered. They communicated that the way Veera saw the world had value, even when other parts of school felt inaccessible. Veera went on to study art and design in college, finally with supports in place that made learning workable. Today, she works as a designer for a Hollywood studio. Looking back, it is clear that Veera’s strengths just needed recognition and encouragement during the years when identity and confidence were forming. Then there is Jonah*, who insists even now that he had no motivation whatsoever as a student. As he describes it, school felt uniformly dull. Learning meant worksheets, tests, and assignments that bore little relationship to anything he cared about. His parents, thoughtful and loving, offered opportunity after opportunity, yet Jonah felt largely indifferent. What Jonah did care deeply about was gaming. Throughout high school, he spent most of his free time immersed in narrative-driven history games set in medieval Europe. He analyzed political systems, debated historical accuracy, and compared game mechanics to real historical events, often spending hours talking online with other players about how faithfully the games represented history. At the time, none of this was recognized as learning. After high school, Jonah described himself as having no particular ambition. When his parents encouraged him to try a single online college course, he chose world history simply because it aligned with his gaming interests. What surprised everyone, including Jonah, was how quickly he excelled. Years of immersive gameplay had given him a deep contextual foundation. He earned top scores, engaged actively with the material, and found himself lingering in virtual office hours to talk with the professor. That professor encouraged him to major in history. Jonah went on to complete his associate degree and then a history major at a highly respected university, graduating with close to a 4.0 GPA. Today, he is a second-year law student. In hindsight, Jonah’s engagement grew once learning aligned more closely with his interests. What Evan, Veera, and Jonah share is not a single profile or outcome, but an experience familiar to many 2e learners. In each anecdote, their strengths fell beyond what traditional schooling was prepared to recognize or nurture, but their families recognized these strengths and found opportunities where they could be celebrated . This is often referred to as “positive niche construction,” constructing an environment that best matches our unique learners, rather than expecting these learners to fit into mismatched learning environments.  Building Opportunities for Strengths to Shine   For many 2e learners, strengths become apparent when we pay close attention. You may already see it in your child: the way they stay absorbed in an idea, the intensity of their questions, or the depth they bring to something that truly interests them. Paying attention to those patterns often tells us far more about how they learn than any test or checklist ever could. In some families, this understanding unfolds gradually through observation and conversation over time. In others, it helps to pause and gather those patterns more intentionally. When families want that added clarity, Sequoia Gifted partners with them to develop affirming, strength-based learning profiles using the Suite of Tools,™  — a research-informed framework designed to illuminate the strengths and learning patterns of 2e learners. Through positive conversations with the parents, teachers or other caregivers, and the child themself, we look at how a learner thinks, what genuinely engages them, the conditions in which they do their best work, and how they approach complexity and challenge. When those insights are brought together into a clear learning portrait, families are better equipped to shape school, homeschool, and after-school environments that intentionally nurture their child’s strengths while supporting growth across academic, social, emotional, physical, and creative domains. Helping families shift from asking how their child can better fit school to asking how learning environments can be shaped to better fit the child often changes what becomes possible. When strengths are recognized and nurtured, confidence has space to build and engagement becomes more sustainable. Over time, children see themselves as capable and curious rather than perpetually misaligned. And when strengths are given room to shine, a love for learning is able to grow. *Names and identifying details have been changed to protect privacy. Lisa A. Jobe, JD, is a leading national educational specialist working with profoundly gifted (PG) and 2e learners and their families; She is also completing her doctorate in education with a focus in PG and 2e learners. Lisa is the founder of Sequoia Gifted and Creative , an educational consulting and school advocacy practice supporting gifted and 2e families. She is also the co-founder of Sequoia Gifted Academy, the first homeschool umbrella created specifically to provide educational support for PG and PG-2e homeschoolers. Lisa is an international speaker and author whose work centers on strength-based, individualized learning pathways. She looks forward to meeting families at the Reel2E Strengths Fair on March 8. You are also welcome to reach out at sequoiagifted@gmail.com .

As parents, we’re full of knowledge, know-how, wisdom, and solutions, and when our kids are   infants and toddlers, we respond in a compassionately curious way, trying to understand what   they need or how to help them. As our kids get older, our expectations increase in line with   their age but even more so with their verbal abilities: the higher their verbal abilities, the   higher our expectations.   When they aren’t meeting those expectations, we don’t naturally respond the way we did when   they were toddlers. Instead we immediately move into our full of   knowledge-wisdom-solutions-director mode:   ● You need to stop …..   ● You should be …..   ● Why aren’t you …..   ● If you don’t …..   ● You know you aren’t supposed to …..   Here’s the thing: behavior is communication no matter our age , and when our kids are not   doing something they “should” know how to do, they are telling us something. To help, we need   to stop directing them and get back to our compassionate curiosity infant and toddler parenting   ways, even when our kids are older. It is critical for our relationship with our kids, for their   sense of self, and for the skills they need to develop.   The reality is, that our kids most likely already know these things, too, which is why they can’t   stand it when we remind them of the “whats” and tell us to stop nagging them ! Our kids have   the knowledge and many times they even have the motivation (the internal desire to get it   done). What they have a harder time with is taking action , especially on the things that aren’t   as interesting, clear, novel, or easy for them. The bottom line is that our kids don’t have a   KNOWLEDGE OR MOTIVATION GAP ; they have an ACTIVATION GAP, and if we want to   help, we have to stop directing and start getting curious!   Historically parents and society have perceived inaction as a lack of motivation, laziness, or   disrespect, but we now know, thanks to our increased knowledge of the brain and neuroscience,   that there are multiple invisible neurophysiological reasons that people don’t take action:   ● Neurotransmitter and transmission differences   ● Asynchronous brain development   ● Interest-based versus importance-based nervous systems   ● Trauma   ● Lagging executive function skills   ● And more   Taking action, or what I refer to as ACTIVATING , is especially challenging for our 2E kids (and   adults, too!), and it is ESSENTIAL to understand our kids’ actions (or inaction) through this neurophysiological lens of activation, especially when it seems like they “should” be able to   do it.   Why?   Because if we continue to use a traditional, directive approach like the one described above,   or other behavioral approaches such as behavior charts, rewards, or consequences, the only   outcomes we can be certain of are these unwanted ones:   ● our relationship will become strained,   ● our kids will   ○ perceive us as nags,   ○ tune us out,   ○ become more disengaged,   ○ argumentative,   ○ defensive,   ○ ashamed,   ○ guilt-ridden,   ○ or shut down, and   ● The action will still not have been taken!   In directing our kids or using a behavioral   approach, we aren’t activating them to do   things; rather, we are activating their   fight-flight-freeze response and their i nternal   belief that something is wrong with them ; that   they have a character flaw because they can’t   do what they “should” be able to do.   Our good intentions for helping our kids will only backfire when we stay in the role of   director—telling, reminding, correcting, managing — and we also take away an opportunity   to learn what they are thinking and experiencing while also building their awareness,   problem-solving, and ultimately their responsibility, agency, confidence and activation!   The solution lies in shifting to what we did naturally when our kids were little. Instead of   being directive and telling our kids what to do (and when, where, why, and how), we   respond as compassionately curious   detectives, or as I also like to say, partners in   problem-solving with our kids. Our kids have more knowledge and we need to help them   uncover ways to use it in goal-directed ways.   What our kids need most when they aren’t doing what needs to be done or they aren’t meeting   expectations, is for someone to show up with them as a partner in problem-solving : ● to understand and validate their experience by   listening without reacting;   ● to reflect and discover with them   ○ what is making it hard;   ○ what obstacles are keeping them from taking   action;   ○ what factors may be at play   ● to clarify values, boundaries, and expectations in a   calm, matter-of-fact manner   ● to brainstorm and co-create creative solutions and   strategies that work with their brain and meet the   need   ● to iterate on the process until a win-win solution   and strategy is found that works for everyone   In being compassionately curious partners in problem solving, we let go of fear, control,   frustration, and our own perspectives and ways of doing things, and we lean in to learning with   our child and about our child, just like we did when they were toddlers . In the process, we   help our kids learn important skills that they will be able use throughout their lives:   ● self-reflection   ● self-awareness   ● self-acceptance   ● self-agency   ● self-determination   ● self-advocacy and how to use help, and   ● problem-solving   Additionally, we strengthen our relationship by modeling and communicating in open, honest   trusting, transparent, and authentic ways ; laying the foundation for a trusted relationship that   our kids can depend on and turn to when faced with inevitable challenges throughout life.   The compassionately curious approach involves several steps:   Step 1: Regulate our own emotions. To be compassionately curious, the first thing we   have to do is get and be calm. (After we have finished problem solving with our child, we   can then release our authentic emotions to a friend, a partner, or just on our own; we just   don’t want our emotions to be targeted at our child or when we are trying to understand   and problem-solve with our child).   Step 2: Connect with our child . We approach our child and in a calm, curious tone,   connect with them. We either make an observation or ask a question. Several   communication techniques can be used for this approach: The goal in this step is to connect in a way that minimizes our child’s emotional   reactivity and provides an opportunity for our child to share with us what they are   thinking about or doing in the moment. We want to start to understand their   perspective before we start to talk about what they aren’t yet doing or our concerns.   ● Hey, what are you doing ?   ● What game are you playing?   ● What’s on your mind?   Step 3: Validate and Explore. Once they have shared what is on their mind or what   they are doing, we respond in a way that validates their experience and lets them know   we have heard what they have said and maybe talks for a few sentences or two about   what it is they are doing or thinking about, and then move into asking or noticing things   about what they are not yet doing.   Oh, that seems like a fun game. Are you the character in white? (and continue for   a bit until it makes sense to switch to something such as…..)   I notice you haven’t started cleaning your room.   When were you planning to start cleaning your room?   I’ve noticed you haven’t been able to get started on your homework at   night, what’s up?   When would be a good time to talk about your goals for this school year?   ○ I’ve noticed you’ve forgotten your water bottle for the past few days, what   ideas do you have to help you remember it? Are you open to hearing my   ideas?   What is on your “to-do” list today? When do you plan to do each of those   things?   Would you be willing to show me what you are doing to keep track of your   assignments, meetings, and other activities you have this year?   How much longer until that game ends so you can get started with your   homework?   What might help you remember to brush your teeth at night?   I   see it is 7:45. I wonder what we do at 7:45 every morning.   I   see your clothes didn’t make it into the hamper. What might help you   remember to put them there?   I   know you are planning to go to the movies tonight. What time will you   start your homework so you can finish it before you go?   I   see you have your soccer cleats on. I wonder if there is anything else   you will need for practice tonight.   It seems like it has been hard for you to remember to brush your teeth at   night. Would you be open to my ideas to help or do you have ideas that   would help you remember? Step 4 : Iterate on the process to develop a win-win .   So you think putting your toothpaste on your bedside table will help you   remember to brush your teeth at night? Ok. When will you put it there?   So you will finish this game in 10 minutes. What time is it now? How will I know   you have started homework at 6:30? What can I do if I notice that you haven’t   gotten started and are still gaming?   What might make it easier for you to get started with cleaning your room? Sounds like you would like to get started on homework at 7. Unfortunately, we   have to go pick up John from drama rehearsal at 7:15 so you will only have 15   minutes to do your homework. Right now it is 5:30. If we have to leave at 7:15,   what time will you get started to ensure you have enough time to finish before we   leave?   Dr. Ross Greene’s Collaborative Proactive Solutions   and the process of motivational   interviewing known as OARS   provide great language and processes for being compassionately   curious. Also, Linda Murphy’s declarative language   provides an alternative way of   communicating with our kids that names and observes things rather than asking which can be   another helpful tool in being a compassionately curious partner in problem solving.   By approaching our kids with compassion and curiosity , we communicate to our kids that we   value their voice, their experience, and we want to understand and learn together. We also can   affirm their frustrations that sometimes things in life are frustrating, overwhelming, hard, tedious,   boring, AND we can find ways to do them or ask about alternative options.   So, the next time you notice that your child is gaming and not doing their homework (yet again)   or you walk into their room and clothes and trash are everywhere, instead of starting to tell your   child the importance of their homework or that they need to clean up their room, pause for a   moment, put your detective hat on , and with a calm, compassionate and curious voice   that you used when they were little, say, “Hey! Whatcha doin?” and see where it might lead. About the author: Courtney Edman is the founder of 2tametheshamE, Inc., where she provides coaching, education, and advocacy for neurodivergent children, young adults, and their families. She helps parents and caregivers develop strategies, skills, and confidence to support twice-exceptional learners, and produces the See Me Podcast. Courtney also delivers trainings, webinars, and guest lectures on giftedness, twice-exceptionality, and neurodiversity-informed approaches to learning.

TL;DR An IEE is a parent-requested second opinion when they disagree with a school evaluation. The school must either fund the IEE or file for due process. IEEs are especially important for twice-exceptional students whose needs are often masked by strong grades. Families are not limited to a district’s preferred evaluator list. Schools must consider IEE findings, even if they do not adopt every recommendation. One of the most important protections available to families navigating special education is something called an Independent Educational Evaluation, often referred to as an IEE. Put simply, an IEE is a second opinion from an assessor outside of the district. If a child has been evaluated by a school district and a family disagrees with that evaluation or its conclusions (e.g., parents believe the child needs services and the school district’s assessment concludes that the child does not need services; the school district recommends a change in placement and the family believes current placement is appropriate), parents have the right to request an independent evaluation at public expense. At public expense means that the school district pays for the evaluation; as long as the evaluation meets the district’s criteria and is completed under an approved agreement, the student’s family does not pay out of pocket for the assessment. Key takeaway:   An IEE is a parent-requested second opinion, paid for by the school district, when families disagree with a school evaluation. Once a parent requests an IEE, the school district must respond without unnecessary delay. Many families choose to submit the request in writing  because it creates a clear paper trail. At that point, the district has two options. They can agree to fund the independent evaluation, or they can file for due process to show that their original evaluation was appropriate.  Key takeaway:   After an IEE request, the district must either agree to fund it or file for due process to defend their evaluation. Why IEEs Are Especially Important for Twice-Exceptional Students In my work as a neuropsychologist independent of school districts, one of the most common patterns I see in twice-exceptional students is a gap between what traditional measures of ability or achievement show and how a student actually functions day to day at school. A child’s performance on tests or assignments does not always reflect how much effort, support, or regulation it takes for them to meet everyday academic demands. School evaluations are designed to answer a very specific question: can this student access the curriculum as it is currently structured? To answer that question, evaluations often focus heavily on cognitive abilities and academic achievement. For twice-exceptional students, this approach can miss important pieces. Executive functioning, emotional regulation, and social cognition are not always captured well by achievement scores alone. Strong skills in one area can mask real challenges in another, particularly for students with uneven profiles. As a result, a twice-exceptional student may earn average or even above-average grades while expending significantly more effort, emotional energy, or compensatory strategies than their peers. When teams focus primarily on outcomes rather than process, it can be easy to overlook the cost at which those outcomes are achieved. Key takeaway:  T wice-exceptional students can appear to be doing well on paper while working far harder than peers due to executive functioning and regulation challenges. At the heart of every IEP decision is the question of access. Access is not only about grades or test performance. It is about whether a student can reasonably engage with instruction without disproportionate effort, distress, or breakdown. For twice-exceptional students, access can appear intact on the surface while requiring unsustainably disproportionate effort underneath, especially as executive functioning demands increase with age. Key takeaway:   Access means learning without disproportionate effort or distress, not just earning acceptable grades. For many families, the purpose of an IEE extends beyond eligibility alone. A comprehensive evaluation  can help clarify how a child learns, where effort is being overextended, and which supports actually reduce cognitive load rather than simply increasing output. Even when a student does not ultimately qualify for special education, this level of understanding can meaningfully inform accommodations, instructional strategies, and advocacy. Choosing an Independent Evaluator If the school district agrees to fund an IEE, they typically provide families with a list of evaluators who meet the district’s criteria. What many families do not realize is that parents are not automatically limited to that list. Families may choose any qualified evaluator, as long as that evaluator meets the school district’s established criteria and agrees to the district’s terms. These criteria can vary by district and may include licensure, professional training, geographic location, and reasonable cost. Some districts also specify the type of professional who may complete the evaluation. For example, a district may require that the evaluation be conducted by a school psychologist, or they may permit any type of psychologist that is licensed in the state to complete the evaluation. Understanding these criteria early helps families make informed decisions and avoid unnecessary delays. Key takeaway:  Parents are not required to choose from the district’s evaluator list if other qualified options meet district criteria . Once a family identifies their preferred evaluator, the school district typically contacts that evaluator directly to establish a contract. What District IEE Contracts Commonly Include IEE contracts vary by district, but many include similar expectations. These often involve a review of records, standardized testing, rating scales or questionnaires, and sometimes a classroom observation. Some districts also request that the evaluator attend an  IEP meeting  to explain findings and answer questions. Many districts place a cap on what they are willing to pay for an outside evaluation. If the evaluator agrees to the scope of work, cost, and timeline, both the evaluator and a representative from the district sign the contract. Once that happens, the district has formally agreed to fund the evaluation, and families do not pay out of pocket for the assessment itself. Timelines are often more flexible than district evaluations. While school-based assessments are tied to state-mandated timelines (e.g., 60 days in California), IEE contracts frequently allow a longer window for completion, sometimes extending to the end of the school year. What the Evaluation Process Often Looks Like In my clinic, the evaluation typically begins with a thorough parent interview and careful review of prior assessments and records. Reviewing the school district’s evaluation is important, not because tests can never be repeated, but because many standardized measures have retest interval guidance and practice-effect considerations. This helps the evaluator select appropriate tools and avoid unnecessary duplication. Families are also encouraged to share relevant medical records, therapy reports, or other documentation that helps provide context and deepen understanding. When possible, a school observation occurs before the child meets the evaluator, allowing the observation to reflect the child’s typical functioning in the classroom. Testing is usually spread across multiple sessions to reduce fatigue and support more accurate results. After testing is complete, the evaluator generally meets with the parents first to review findings and answer questions. The final report is then shared with the school district, as district-funded IEEs typically require that the report be provided to the district as part of the funding agreement. Even with a district-funded evaluation, evaluators still need signed releases of information to communicate with schools, teachers, or other providers. In many cases, it is helpful for evaluators to request documents such as the most recent IEP, progress reports, grades, and attendance records directly from the district to maintain clear documentation. After the Independent Evaluation Is Submitted Once the school district receives the IEE, the IEP team will schedule a meeting to review and consider the findings. In many cases, team members have already read the report, and the outside evaluator provides a summary of conclusions and recommendations, followed by questions from the team and the family. The school district is required to consider the results of an IEE when making decisions about a child’s educational program, though they are not required to adopt every recommendation. Still, a well-conducted independent evaluation can play a meaningful role in shaping how a student’s needs are understood and addressed. Key takeaway:   Schools must consider IEE findings when making decisions, even if they do not adopt every recommendation. One Final Note Early in my career, I wish someone had told me that requesting an IEE is not about finding fault or creating conflict. The goal is to gain a clearer, more complete understanding of how a child is functioning and what they need in order to learn sustainably as they grow. In my experience, schools genuinely want a student to succeed and they appreciate collaborating with someone who can see things from a different perspective. IEEs can help translate a student's strengths and differences into actionable insight for a student, their family, their teachers, and the individuals at school that support them. For many families, this clarity becomes a foundation for more productive conversations with school teams, more targeted supports, and a shared understanding of how to preserve both learning and well-being as expectations increase. Ultimately, an IEE is a tool. When used thoughtfully, it can support collaboration, deepen understanding, and help ensure that a twice-exceptional student is not only performing, but truly supported in accessing their education in a way that is realistic, humane, and sustainable. About the Author Dr. Lethco helps parents raise capable, self-directed kids using executive functioning strategies designed for neurodivergent learners. She is a neuropsychologist and the founder of Brain Insights in Walnut Creek, California.

Our May 2025 support group for parenting 2e kids, Tarra Knotts discusses the traits and experiences of students with PDA (Pathological Demand Avoidance). Read the transcript here I think I ran into real to eat before I ran into parents helping parents. But anyway, I've been running the PDA, pathological demand avoidance or pervasive drive for autonomy parent group with parents helping parents. Originally it started in real 2 and then we moved it over to parent helping parents. We meet on the fourth Thursday of the month at 7:00 p.m. on Zoom and then again on the second Sunday of the month on Zoom. So the Sunday one's coming up. Yes, it is on Mother's Day and I'm going to do it anyway. Just to I guess it's hard for me to see comments, but if anyone wants to chime in that they have a kid that this seems to make sense for, just chime in. We have it it's a term coined all the way back in the 80s in the UK by Elizabeth and Ann Newsome. I think they recognized that it was some sort of neurodiversity, some sort of autism, but it wasn't behaving. The normal approaches to autism, behavior therapy and stuff like that weren't working. These kids like change. They don't do well with rules and regulations, opposite of many many other kinds of versions of autism. It's not exactly Asperger either. Very commonly occurs with anxiety, depression, mood disorders, oppositional defiant disorder, ADHD, and guess what? Twice exceptionality. Many of the PDA kids are very bright, at least in some areas, maybe not every area, but they are independent thinkers. It's not uncommon for them to be LGBTQIA as is many neurodivergent people tend to not pay attention to the social norms and they are more their authentic selves. They don't look as classically autistic for sure to the point where it can get very hard to get an autistic diagnosis because they are often highly verbal. They, you know, are bright. They look like they can understand social stuff, but their loss of autonomy or the bumping into demands can really throw them into a tail spin. So again, loss of autonomy is a big one. Like a normal four-year-old, if you're like, "Hey Joey, can you go pick up the balls and throw them in the basket?" would be like, "No problem." But Joey, who is PDA, might have done that if you didn't tell him to. It's just that if you're gonna make me, I'm not going to thing. They generally, like many bright kids, don't see a real hierarchy to this world. It's generally everyone's the same. There is not the higher the adults and the kids. Everyone's the same. The teacher and the kids same. Their nervous systems are extra sensitive. They perceive their world they feel it bigger kind of I think sometimes people think autism doesn't pick up social cues I think in this case it picks it up but it overpicks it up. It might over interpret it might interpret as a threat it might interpret it extra negatively it might anyway it's over interpretation. Again they feel they look social and generally common autistic therapies don't work, but some mental health approaches work, counseling approaches, attachment, attachment work often helps with kids. There's this is a book, Can't Not Won't. Going to blank on her name, the author's name. Anyway, there's a book that's titled Can't Not Won't. And it's it's kind of describes these kids as like they're always saying, "I can't, I won't." But they they want to and they just can't even make themselves. They want to go to school, but they can't make themselves. They want to do their homework. They want to get a job. They want to have friends. And they just can't get over the anxiety and the intolerance for distress. And so that's why more of a counseling approach can help these children. This is I took this from one of my PDA groups and I asked what are your common struggles? School refusal is super high on the list. So despite being bright, despite actually liking education, they can't get their can't get themselves to go to school or stay at school, it just feels too big. Life refusal, you know, brushing teeth, changing clothes. They kind of live in defense mode. Some of them have very negative, you know, self-defeating sensitivities. You know these are just some common quotes my my kid had my my kids avoid committing to activities even if they want to do them because it's an unspoken even if it's their own desire it's an unspoken expectation so then they don't want to do it. We run into this with my teen all of the time. I don't she's like I don't want to do my laundry cuz then you're going to expect me to do my laundry. I don't want to do well in class cuz then you're going to expect or I'm going to expect me to do someone's going to expect me to do well in class. I think the hardest parts can be a lot of big lashing out, anger, dysregulation. Sometimes instead of externalizing, kids internalize. They might self harm. They may refuse to eat. They may just literally shut down. Kind of more of a freeze response. It's as if if any of you recognize yourself as a little demand avoidant, you can understand why being in a job setting or being around social other peers can can place a lot of demands on us. But certainly there's gifts. They generally aren't so authentic. Both of my kids have a tremendous sense of humor and really good with words. So it sometimes has made it hard on the diagnosis aspect because they get idioms, they get, you know, more than one meaning of a word. They're loyal, they're wise beyond their years, and just like any other twice exceptional bright child because they perceive and pick up the adult world in their young experience, there is just such a conflict and it does can can lead to some hard days, some really, you know, this world is too hard to handle kind of feelings. This is the book by Eliza Fricker. This is I this I have this this was a presentation from Big Mind School. And they are over in East Bay and they definitely understand PDA. I do think there's other settings and I can talk about that a little more, but they really get, you know, how to pick battles, anxiety management, kind of working with the spirit, not against the spirit. And they can they can see you know you know being if they have to demand something they come at it from an interesting angle. I have to do that at home all the time. I can never and these kids you can never come at it from an authoritarian or authoritative parenting expect. You always have to come in from the side. You have to come with the child to where you want them to go. You have to kind of parent by influence not demands. And you kind of have to give them time. I you know, if I'm going to tell my kid they have to do something, it's never going to happen that day. It's sometimes going to happen a couple days later. It also depends on how regulated or not regulated they are. If they are otherwise their anxiety is not treated, their depression is not treated, their mood is not treated, some of this this won't work. You're in a battle and then you need to get other kinds of help in first and then you just are left with a beautiful PDA child that is more regulated and not as heightened. This is more about demands. Just you recognize how many demands all children experience. You know, put on your shoes, sit here, do this assignment, go to bed. And even us adults don't always like to do those things. And indirect demands are obviously perceived demands that kids put on themselves. You really I have found over the last my daughter's 17, my only hope of parenting a kid like this is through a relational model. Like I can't be the normal authoritarian authoritative parent. So I have to like I have to know that she's my she's safe with us. We care about her but and we're working with her not against her. But I think I had another thought there. Sorry. Obviously no shaming it is so hard. I think I've had to do a lot of work on my own anxieties of expectations of my children, especially as they get older. Oh my god, if she doesn't work do doesn't learn how to do homework, she is literally never going to get to college even though she could teach the class. That kind of thinking. I think they don't get a lot of positives, they get a lot of negatives. So especially indirect positives, not direct positives. A lot of kids don't like compliments, probably because they're so smart, they don't need to be complimented by us. Here's some general PDA resources. I love Christy Forbes. If you are an adult that recognizes yourself as a little PDA, you might really like her. At Peace Parents is by Casey Erlick. She is she's some a person that a lot of parents that are familiar with the PDA literature, the websites and stuff really like her. And I think it's really good when you're in a really hard spot when your kid is just in tantrums and raging or completely shut down. It's worth following her advice. But it I say this gently. I think especially as kids get older what I see happening sometimes is that if we if we remove all demands they don't kind of get a you know they don't get a little bit of a a tiny callous to some demands. So, I think you have to strike this balance between reestablishing peace and then doing little little demands that that are within their realm so they can start to feel capable again. We and and unfortunately for my family, we really did have our kids did had to do some out of home care. My my son actually just got back from a really loving therapeutic boarding school where they kind of got him to relearn that he can do hard things that when he wants to do them. So now we are in a better spot. But at peace parents is a start when you are really in a really messy situation and or if your kid is quite a bit younger. PDA USA has a lot of good support groups. Ross Green is never going you're never going to go wrong with Ross Green. PDA society is a decent place. It's UK. So if you join those groups, you just have to be aware that UK resources are different and things like that. And I think this is my Facebook group, Bay Area PDA group. I run that. It is not part of PhD, but there's a lot of crossover. Alex Klein is in the Bay Area. He's a psychologist from Kaiser who really recognizes PDA. Absolutely awesome. Children's Health Council, we've had pretty good luck with them understanding PDA profile. Summit Center has done well with recognizing the autism in a PDA kid. Like I said, sometimes it's hard to get a diagnosis. But all that said, like therapeutically, what what's been helpful for my family is actually finding therapists, parent coaches, things like that that are really coming from a very trauma-informed relational attachment approach rather than, I don't know, CBT, DBT, those sort of like cognitive behavior therapy approaches that a lot of that is the normal go-to for mental health kind of stuff, mental health, autism. And once in a while you can find a person that is a behaviorist, a BCBA that understands PDA, but it's rare and you have to kind of go hunting for it. It's not to say it can never happen, but it's rare. So, I think you can go ahead and stop my slides. I have a lot more in there.

As parents and educators, we have traditionally been trained to look at our neurodivergent  children through a deficits-based lens, focusing more on what they struggle with than on the  unique strengths and cognitive abilities that can contribute to their personal growth and success.  In part, that’s because it’s easier to see what’s difficult. We know when reading or focus is hard  for our children. We see the frustration that comes with having difficulty managing transitions or  emotions. But when that’s the narrative children hear about themselves, it can quietly shape  how they see who they are and what they’re capable of.  But every neurodivergent child also brings a unique brain, unique abilities, and unique ways of  thinking about the world. A strengths-based lens starts with the question: What is already  working for this child?  That then challenges us to think about how we can build from there.  When we intentionally notice and use a child’s strengths, something powerful happens. Kids  experience success, start to feel capable, develop a stronger sense of who they are and start to  notice what they’re good at. That sense of competence fuels motivation, confidence, and  engagement. What A Strengths-Based Approach Really Means A strengths-based approach to supporting our children doesn’t mean ignoring challenges. It  simply means we don’t start with them. At its core, strengths-based learning and support  means weaving a child’s strengths into how they learn and how they show what they know.  Often, a strengths-based approach is interpreted to mean “interest-based learning.” But that is  only one form of strengths-based support. Interests absolutely matter, but learning strengths go  far beyond hobbies or favorite topics. They include how a child thinks, processes, notices,  connects, builds, remembers, analyzes, creates, or focuses.  For neurodivergent kids, using strengths isn’t just encouraging, it’s often an accommodation.  When learning is connected to what a child does well, it becomes more accessible, which  increases the likelihood of success.  In neurodiversity-affirming environments, supporting the whole child means helping them  develop skills while also protecting their sense of self. A child might struggle in one area and be  exceptionally strong in another. For example, a dyslexic student might find reading exhausting  but have an incredible ability to visualize, design, or build. In a school setting, using visuals,  hands-on projects, or creative formats, can create a bridge that allows the child’s strengths to  support growth. Why Neurology Justifies Strengths-Based Support  Lots of kids are able to focus and direct their attention to whatever task they are being asked to  complete, whether or not they are interested in it. They comply with requests because they  know they are expected to do so, and they have the self-regulation skills to initiate tasks and  complete them.  Many neurodivergent kids can’t do that in the same way, not because they don’t care, but  because their brains process motivation differently. Brain chemistry and brain wiring influence  attention, reward, and effort. This means many neurodivergent learners are deeply motivated by  what is meaningful, interesting, or stimulating to them and far less motivated by tasks that feel  disconnected or unrewarding.  That’s not a question of character. It’s a matter of neurology.  When learning is built around strengths, it works with a child’s brain instead of constantly  fighting against it. Strengths-based supports give kids an entry point into learning that feels  doable and from there, skills can grow.  Starting With Strengths  The adage “ A rising tide lifts all boats” provides a compelling analogy for strengths-based  approaches. Just as the rising tide makes all boats ascend uniformly, leveraging a student’s  existing strengths—their personal “rising tide”—can help uplift and support their weaker areas.  When you lift what’s already strong, other areas can rise with it.  This approach doesn’t only support individual growth, it also champions the diverse ways each  child thinks and learns, celebrating their unique potential.  In practice, this means adults first identify what a child is good at and then use that as the  foundation. If a student loves creative writing, that strength can become the place to practice  planning, organizing, revising, and self-monitoring. Executive functioning skills don’t live in  isolation, they grow best inside meaningful work.  Many neurodivergent kids understand skills— in theory. They can explain social rules,  emotional strategies, or organizational systems. But using those skills in real life is much harder.  Strengths-based support can help close that gap. When kids practice skills inside activities they  care about, like robotics club, art, gaming, animals, storytelling, or design, the learning sticks. Strengths Don’t Always Look Like “School Strengths” Many neurodivergent kids have large discrepancies in their abilities. If you were to look at a  profile of one child’s areas of strengths and difficulties, it would look like a mountain range with  large peaks and valleys. The goal of strengths-based support is not to flatten those differences,  but to use the peaks as support structures for the valleys  A strengths-based lens starts with the question: What is already  working for this child?  One of the most  important shifts for parents and educators is realizing that strengths are not always the things  schools typically reward. The strengths of neurodivergent learners are as diverse as they are.  Strengths may include:  ● intense focus on specific topics  ● noticing details others miss  ● thinking in pictures  ● craving routine or novelty  ● seeing big patterns  ● using language in advanced or unusual ways  ● thinking very literally  ● building complex systems  ● solving problems logically  ● immersing deeply in passions  The next step is learning to notice these less-traditional strengths, understand what they can  look like in everyday life, and use them to support learning, confidence, and development.  These may not show up as high grades, neat work, or quiet behavior. But they are real,  meaningful strengths. When adults recognize them, value them, and use them intentionally,  they become powerful tools for growth.  Adapted from Neurodiversity-Affirming Schools: Transforming Practices So All Students Feel  Accepted and Supported by Amanda Morin and Emily Kircher-Morris (Free Spirit Publishing,  2025)

Parenting twice-exceptional children often feels like working in an emergency room. Parents are constantly assessing, prioritizing, and adapting to meet the most immediate needs, whether that’s dysregulation, competing demands at home, school pressures, or simply getting through the day. Courtney introduces the concept of triage parenting, a framework that helps parents stay grounded, flexible, and compassionate while navigating these high-intensity moments. While triage parenting is exhausting, it is not impossible, and it is not a journey parents have to face alone. Courtney will share insights from both lived experience and professional practice, offering reassurance, perspective, and practical ways to make this demanding parenting journey more sustainable. Transcript 0:00 With you. Click okay. I'm excited to share this um framework with you. And as uh Teresa mentioned, I am a parent of a child that well a young adult actually who's twice exceptional. He's now 23. Um, we didn't come to understand that he was twice exceptional until he was 17, which as you might imagine was, um, led us through some pretty curvy paths and challenging paths. Um, but I'm happy to say we're we're kind of on the other side of things and he's thriving now. We have a beautiful relationship. Um, he's working towards his degree in computer science. I have two other uh, young adult girls. One is a physician assistant. one is on her way to becoming a speech pathologist. So, we have a lot of medical people in our home. Um, I love to play tennis. I play on a competitive tennis uh women's doubles league every week. I love to travel. Um, and you can see my faithful companion in my office and on my kayak Baxter. 1:07 Um yes I've um as part of my background so I started this company to tame the shame inc which is a coaching organization service um for neurody divergent individuals across the lifespan and their parents. Um but I came to that through uh the field of physical therapy and my son merging together. Um so I was a pediatric physical therapist. I'm still licensed and I also worked with uh people that have uh complex pulmonary um diagnosis uh progressive um pulmonary diseases. Uh and my brain has been trained and my brain works as for problem solving, right? And for relationships and I couldn't figure out how to support my son. And when I finally did and the portal opened and this world of twice exceptionality um be I became aware of I was finally able to say ah the tools that I've been looking for and I'm going to sh it's it's really truly my calling to share them with others. So I'm excited to move forward and start to share this concept of triage parenting with you. And I think the the language triage comes naturally because of my medical background. 2:29 Um, and also if you're interested, I co-host a podcast on Apple and Spotify called the See Me podcast with I host it with another parent of a person who has a twice exceptional son. So, what are tonight's objectives? I'm hoping that um, similar to what Teresa did, we'll review a little bit of the complexities of raising a twice exceptional child. you've got a great definition that she provided about the distinguishing strengths um and the various challenges that exist simultaneously um and there are complexities that come in raising a two-way child as a result of those that asynchronous development that we like to talk about. I want to review some basic principles of triage and emergency room care. Um we're not going to get into the clinical side of things. It's really just understanding the philosophies and approach that exist with triage and emergency room care. Um, and then explore and apply these principles to our lives as we're raising these twice exceptional kiddos and why those principles can be really really important as we're going through our days. And mostly I hope the biggest takeaway is that um you'll feel empowered and supported in this journey of raising twice exceptional child or children, teens, young adults wherever you might be in your journey um because of having these principles and kind of understanding this framework uh that I'll share tonight. 4:04 So what is as we get started let's just try to think about what is our role as a parent or a caregiver and I tried to summarize it a little bit and other people might have different things that might be included but in general my view uh and I think many people's views um is that we want our children to become confident we want them to be happy responsible respectful, well-grounded members of society who can be as independent as possible, right? And pursue meaningful work um and manage this roller coaster of life. And we do that by providing basic needs for them. We nurture, we validate them, we're encouraging and teaching them. And we're advocating for them, right? Um, and sometimes that we're trying to figure out like who is this child and how can I be the parent that they need me to be? And that's a question that sometimes we don't ask as parents. But when we are raising these twice exceptional children, it's so important to say, who is the parent that I need to be for you given the brain that you have? Sometimes it's the opposite. People are like, "You're the child. I'm the parent. You need to be for me the child that I need you to be." But I think it's super important to keep in mind the flip. 5:28 So, in addition to being a parent, we also have so many other hats that we are wearing, right? We cook, we're driving our kiddos, maybe, you know, we have a spouse, we have a partner, maybe we are doing things solo, so we have even more hats. We're the household CEO. Um if we might be working, we might be volunteering, we might be doing both, right? And then we also are our own person who we came to this parenting role before, right? So we were we were individuals even before we became parents. And so we have our own hobbies, we have our own strengths, we have our own challenges. And we bring our own interests, right, that sometimes we have to put on pause or manage. But we're wearing all of these hats. and so are our kids, right? And that results in all of these competing demands that we are trying to manage and navigate on a daily basis, weekly basis. We're trying to make sure the kids have clean clothes, there's food on the table, the lunches are packed, right? Everybody's academic needs are met, emotional needs are met, social needs are met, their interests are met. Not to mention, right, we've got we're trying to get out the door to work or we're trying to pay the bills. So, there's all types of competing demands. And that's just when you are a parent in general. 6:52 But when you add a child with multiple exceptionalities to the mix, it gets even more complex because we have bigger emotions with people who are twice exceptional, right? We have more needs that our children have more needs that have to be met for our children with their lagging skills or um their um intensities, right? They have heightened emotions. They might have sensory sensitivities and they have this thing called asynchronous development. And that's a whole another topic that I'm sure you can find more information about on the real.org website. But effectively that means that their brain is developing at different rates. Different parts of their brain are developing at different rates and importantly can develop at different rates compared to their chronological age. So you can have someone who has, you know, abilities in as as a 16-year-old when they're chronologically 12 and abilities simultaneously at that 8-year-old level. So we're talking about are we talking with an 8-year-old? Are we talking with a 16-year-old, right? Or are we talking with a 12-year-old? And that creates all types of complexities. 8:11 And we also know that our children are wonderful. And they are simply these actions that they have, the things that they do, the complexities that they have are simply a part of who they are. And sometimes what makes it even harder for us to understand and to grasp is these differences are brainbased. It's all invisible, right? So unlike many other challenges um that people might face that might be physical, we can't see them. They come out through their actions. And that's sometimes what makes this even more complex because we're seeing it through the lens of what we understand behavior to be. And there are so many societal and traditional ways of perceiving behavior that are not brainbased that make it really challenging for us to figure out how do we approach this if rewards and consequences and traditional parenting approaches don't work. 9:13 And so we have these wonderful kids with these strengths with these challenges. We have all the hats that we're wearing and we're trying to make it through daily life and the ongoing challenges are real for everyone. They're real for our kids, right? They're having meltdowns. They're not getting what they want. They're feeling things very deeply. They're not necessarily in environments that are working for them yet, right? They're avoiding school. They're lying to us. Um they're forgetting things. They're distracted by things. None of this is happening intentionally. It's a part of their neurohysiology. And the challenges are real for us, too, because we're really trying to figure out how to support our kids. But sometimes we can feel lonely. We can feel frustrated. We can feel sad, right? We're confused, unsettled. I know that's how I felt a lot of those first 17 years with my own son. And I know that I have a lot of parents that I speak with who are calling and saying, "My kid's forgetting his homework." you know, he's melting down all night long. We're screaming at each other. It's just not working. And it's because the traditional approaches won't work with our kids who are twice exceptional. 10:31 And so, we have these homes where our parenting experience is just like, "Please help me. Things are chaotic. They're constant. They're overwhelming. I've got competing priorities." And because of the nature of our kids, things are intense, right? They're uncertain and we can't hit pause. We have to keep going. So that's where this triage parenting concept came in to play, right? Because when I think of a home that has those similar character that has those characteristics, I was talking with a parent and I one time and I said, you know, we just have to triage what's happening in our homes. And when I thought about that even more, I actually came to think about the emergency room has such a similar type of environment and how do they manage with grace, perseverance, all of these unpredictable things happening that are constant with competing priorities that are overwhelming, intense, uncertain, chaotic, and they can't stop either, right? 11:44 So, it made sense that not only was this the competing demands that we have to manage in our own home needing to be triaged, but how can we use the response of the emergency that the emergency room providers have to inform what we do? And that's sort of how it all came into play. And when I think about it even more, I think about the patients in the emergency room. I think about our kids, right? They're not. Nobody no patient in the emergency room is intentionally giving anybody a hard time. And our kids are not giving us a hard time either. People in the emergency room are having are disregulated. They're emotional. It's an emotional time. Kids in our homes who are twice exceptional have heightened emotional experiences. There's a lot of uncertainty. The patients want to be well. Our kids want to do well, right? Parents want to do well also, right? And patients neither neither patients nor kids can figure things out on their own. They need help. And that's where we as parents come in and the providers as well. 12:56 So what doesn't help? So if I go into an emergency room and the doctors or the triage nurse would roll their eyes at me or say, "Oh my gosh, what how could why did you break your arm?" Like how silly. Couldn't you have done better? Right? Or if they criticized me or roll their eyes, like they're not providing any judgment or shame. They're not going to give up on me. They're there to help me. What can I do to help you? It's not necessarily what they're going to say, but Right. And so, we as parents can learn from that. And I think the one of the things that I had to learn as a parent and that I help parents learn in my coaching is that these traditional parent perceptions that kids are intentionally doing certain things. I have to help retrain the way that you perceive things. They're not intentionally being disrespectful. They're not intentionally um doing things to make us mad. They're they're doing things that their brain is telling them that they should be doing. And there that's a whole another talk, right? But that but they're doing things because of the neurohysiology of their brain. In the same way that when we're seeking medical care at an emergency room, it's because our body is doing something and we need help that we haven't yet been given. 14:19 So we need a different approach. We need a different toolbox, right? And so there are other things that we can learn from the ER. How do they not respond? We know what how do they respond? They respond. They're composed. They're calm. Hey, come here. Let me let me check let me check you out and see what's going on. They're validating. They listen to what we are telling them in order to help inform our response. A response. They're flexible. Okay. This is an ideal ER, right? But for the most part, this is what they're doing. And certainly, if there's a true emergency, they're acting more swiftly, but they're still using the same principle approach. They're acting swiftly. They're they're figuring things out quickly while also remaining calm. They're thinking creatively. They're problemolving, right? And they're responding rather than reacting. And I hope you understand when I make um that differentiation that their responding is coming from kind of a frontal lobe logical response as opposed to an emotional reactive place. I hope that makes sense. And of course they have a team around them where they can be collaborative or they're working with the patient, right? And that's why a place like Real 2 is so important because we need to have our team around us as well. 15:53 All right. So when we think about the ER and we think about the tri triage parenting and we think about similarities, there also are differences. And I want to make sure that this is a framework. It's not like we are medical providers because there are definite differences between the medical um triage and ER providers and us. The relationship is shortterm. Ours is long term. We have a very strong hopefully very strong emotional connection to our kids and it's a very professional relationship. Hopefully no emotions are involved beyond the humanto human connection right like I mentioned before they're part of a system of support and a full team whereas many times we're working alone surrounded by a community hopefully but in the moment it's sometimes it's just us. They're doing shift work. We're always on duty, right? They have years of training. We're trying to come to things like this to help expand our learning, but we're really doing some on in the- moment training, right? Sometimes we haven't we're faced with a situation that we've never faced before, and we have to figure out how to think clearly in the moment to manage it. we're learning something new about our child and we have to figure out what to do in the moment, right? 17:19 And then um as a medical provider in the ER, they're only responsible in the moment, right? Whereas we they're only responsible for one patient. Well, they're responsible for the patient in front of them at the moment. whereas we're responsible perhaps for three children plus the bills plus dinner plus trying to get three kids out the door all at the same time. Right? So there are differences. It's a framework. But what we can learn is this crossover space and I used the yellow and blue intentionally with the green in the middle, right? Um so that we do in both the triage and the ER providers and parents can have a similar response, right? And it's that response that is so important for us to learn from when supporting our twice exceptional students or twice exceptional kiddos. What I also would argue though is that in any relationship, if we can use these principles, it would make the world a kinder place, right? If we can always remain calm, we can um think about positive intent that no, everybody is having a hard time, not giving a hard time. 18:42 And so when we think about triage medicine versus triage parenting, it's a very similar process, right? It's a similar framework. We're gathering information. We're assessing. We're prioritizing. Right? In medicine, they're stabilizing. In parenting, we're regulating. Right? But we always want to get curious. They're going to treat clinically. We're going to respond and they're going to discharge. And then we get to follow up and keep doing the cycle again and again and again. 19:18 And so when we think about triage parenting and kind of the pillars of it all, there's this triage color code system. And I intentionally left the black off because we don't want to go to that place where people are deceased or it's just nothing more can be done, right? So we don't want to go to black. This is not salvageable is the language that they used. But really, if we can think about when when things are urgent, when things are important, and things are like they can wait, it's kind of the last step. Um, right? But when things are urgent, one of the most important things that we have to remember is we want to make sure that we're staying calm. We're regulating. And that's the first step is to get calm and to regulate so that we can then respond to the important things. We want to make sure everybody's safe. We want to make sure everybody's feeling emotionally safe because when we can't when we are reacting when we are are acting from an emotional brain it's going to result in everything escalating. 20:31 When our child is res is is responding or reacting from their emotional brain nothing is going to get through to their logical brain. they won't be able to access any of the information that we're giving them. It's it's there's a lid on their ability in their brain and on their ability to receive that information. So, the first thing that we have to do triage in order of importance is manage our own emotions and support or co-regulate the emotions of of of others around us. I always say making sure people are safe first physically trumps any type of co-regulation, right? So, we have to make sure that we're responding and keeping people safe and then making sure that we're all managing our emotions. So, sometimes we have to act and say, "I'm going to talk about this with you afterwards, but right now we have to go." Right? But we're making sure that we are responding as a triage nurse would. Okay? I need you to come here and you're going to go to this bed. So you have a confident, calm, composed voice while you're taking that action in order to help ultimately the person to co-regulate and get to a safe space. 21:52 And then we can go about doing the important work of what's important. What's the most important thing that I have to do here? Is it I think I have some um examples, right, of can't get past the edit, right? I'm at home and I have a variety of different things happening. I've got, you know, Jason has his room and he's got computer parts all over his floor. We're concerned that the dog's going to eat them. Um, I've got um Jeremy down here who built this massive Lego structure and Jason knocked it all over and now he's up in arms. I've got laundry that needs to be done. I've got to get John to his robotics practice. What do I do first? Right. So, I probably pick up and console, if I were putting my triage parent hat on, right? I would pick up and console Jeremy to try to support his regulation. I would talk with the with Jason about needing to go and getting into the car and talk to John about getting into the car to get to robotics practice. And then at a later time, I'm just going to leave the laundry. That's the green, right? The green the laundry is going to have to wait till later. 23:17 The talking with J Jason is going to have to happen at a later time also because what I need to do right now is console Jeremy regulate, right? Get John to robotics and then I can come back and have a conversation with Jeremy about what happened and do some repair work between the two boys and then at some point I can get the laundry done. Right. So, I'm trying to figure out like sometimes I might want to have a conversation between Jeremy and Jason about what he did, but in the meantime, but I can always go back and do that. In the meantime, I want to regulate first. And here are some other scenarios that I put out. But I don't know if people who have come here tonight might have questions or situations and scenarios that they have come about um have come up in their own lives and how we might be able to put our triage hat on for them. Because ultimately when we put our triage hat on, you know, the goal is to assess the situation, make sure everybody's safe, stay calm, regulate to avoid escalation, prioritize things, and say, "What's the right next step here?" Right? 24:40 And be flexible, patient. Um, one of the most important things is to validate other people's experience. Get curious. Right. And and continue to be creative in our ability to multitask. Um and then when you go back and see that green, we always want to reflect on what we did to see what we might be able to do going forward, right? What are some things that might help us to avoid situations in the future or increase independence in the future for other people? Um, and one of the most important things to do is celebrating success, right? Validating success. So, if you're looking at these on the right, these are kind of the things that I think of as um examples of the different triage levels. So, the managing emotions and and safety and health, the things in life are important, but they're not as important as relationships, right? When we're managing our twice exceptional kiddos, well, supporting. And one of the things that I always say um and has been true in my life is from our relationships skills will be built. If our relationships are not if our relationships are strong, connected, and trusting we'll be able to get to where we want to go. It's from these the strength of our relationships that we find the path forward. It may be a different timeline. 26:38 Um, and then I gave some examples in the last thing of things that we can just let go of because we can ultimately have conversations about them, but it's not the highest top priority of things to pay attention to. Whether it's mismatched clothing or it's not the best meal on the table or there's a mess of toys on the floor or a lot of times we get stuck in future thinking. Well, if I if he's not able to do this now, he's never going to be able to do it. If he's not able to do this now, he's not going to be able to get into the job. Well, the most important thing is what's happening now and what's the right next step. So, I'm hopeful and I'm happy to go through these scenarios if people want to. I don't know what the time check is at this point um Teresa but um ultimately this is the goal of the triage parenting toolbox and I'm hopeful that it will um provide a framework for you to think about putting your triage parenting toolbox on manage relationships. Think about what are the priorities. How do I prioritize relationships first? being calm and then responding from there. 28:04 Um, wonderful. Thank you, Courtney. Um, yeah, I think that why don't we take maybe one of the scenarios and just for me as a parent, um, it sounds like the co-regulation. So, first regulate yourself. Second is the co-regulation which supports the overall relationship, right? That's kind of why we went to the kiddo who was having, you know, the meltdown first was because we wanted to help co-regulate, which would then help in future times that he knew he was sick. Kind of things like that, you know. So, it's it's it's that relationship part of through co-regulation if I'm mistaken. Okay, cool. Yeah. Do you have one scenario that you hear a lot or um let's see, Yel, do you have one in the comments, too? We did we did put a uh if you want to drop something in the comments, maybe somebody has dropped one in the comments. Yay. Ya, do you see? 28:55 Yeah, I'm constantly having to triage between fighting the school with my child who has an IEP and my 2E child who needs support as well isn't getting it in school because, and I quote, she gets good grades because I'm constantly putting out fires on the other end. So the the challenges are the I'm a visual learner, Yael. So process things. It's in the chat. It's in the chat if you'd like to. Ah, okay. Perfect. Look. And if you'd like the person to if they want to come on off um mute and talk, we can do that as well. So, fighting the school with my child who has an IEP and then also has a two-ye child who needs support but isn't getting it. So, always putting out fires. Oh, yeah. So, you're always putting out fires with the school. Is that I can stop sharing. And there it is. So you're trying to triage.

Assessments and services can frequently be cost-prohibitive. At REEL, we are frequently asked about free or low-cost options that don’t break the bank. *Please note! This is not a comprehensive list, but a collection of recommendations by our community. These resources have not been vetted by the REEL team. Everyone will have their own experiences, we urge you to use this list only as a starting point. Please email us if you have more ideas to add. Get a special education assessment through your school district (even if you homeschool) through age 18 (unless you graduate early). See our IEP guide for 2e students (coming Oct 2023). Get an Independent Educational Evaluation (IEE) through your school district. Contact Parents Helping Parents (PHP) for free support with special education, assistive technology, mental health, and more. PHP staff speak many different languages, including English, Spanish, and Vietnamese. Contact CASE Advocacy for free consultations, and sliding scale file reviews, training, and advocacy services. Contact Children’s Health Council (CHC) for assessments and ongoing therapies. CHC offers financial assistance and accepts Medi-Cal. Contact Turning Points Educational Solutions , they often get 90% reimbursement even out of network, single case agreements with insurance, and have payment plans. Some diagnoses can be obtained from your pediatrician or a developmental pediatrician UCSF, Stanford, and similar universities run studies where part of the study is doing an autism assessment or other type of evaluation. These are free and they usually pay you for participating in the study, as well as give you the report and go over results with you. (e.g. search for "Stanford autism research study") Some medical centers do a great job of getting insurance to cover your needs. One parent wrote: In San Francisco, the CPMC/Sutter Kalmanovitz center has a number of services (and a great OT gym). They are great at working with insurance to get things covered, and they have a sliding scale I believe when insurance won't cover. Service level depends on the staff there at the time. But I've had 100% success with all the OT evaluations and OTs -- they have always been excellent! Sometimes you can get a reduced cost assessment by working with a trainee/student in a graduate program (under the guidance of a professional). Try calling Stanford, UCSF, Summit Center, etc. Students with an autism diagnosis can get many services through the Department of Rehabilitation (DOR) One parent: DOR paid for her son’s tuition and books for 5 years of college. Regional Center paid for two of her son’s summer internships at Lawrence Livermore. SSI/SSDI paid for her son’s rent/room & board for the 5 years he was in college. She had to create an ABLE account to shield her son’s earnings from his many summer internships. And she protects her son’s ability to continue to receive public services through a Special Needs Trust. The State of California published this Self-Help Information for Special Education Cases , which includes information on low-cost or free advocate and attorney options .

REEL is excited to announce the publication of the DEAR REEL Model for educators: Classroom Strategies for Twice-Exceptional Student Success  The DEAR REEL model consists of four lenses: Develop Connection Embrace Flexibility Attend to Strengths Reframe Behaviors This document walks readers step by step through each lens of the DEAR REEL model. For each lens, you will find:  an overview and definitions;  personal stories and examples;  suggested articles, books, blog posts, podcasts and videos;  additional online resources; detailed lists of practical suggestions by grade level for elementary, middle, and high school. While this document is intended for educators, parents can also use this document to help them better understand and evaluate school options and environments. Click here to download your copy!

Meet Caleb. He’s gifted, with extremely high verbal comprehension, while at the same time, his dyslexia, dysgraphia, and ADHD means he struggles to read, write, and act like everyone else. This results in an interesting mix - he is fiercely independent, creative, and inquisitive. He’s always coming at things from a different angle, and putting disparate things together - both physical things and abstract concepts. He loves to think, talk, and make connections, but resists putting anything down on paper. He loves to do his own thing, but resists doing what others ask of him. He wins poetry contests, but his writing is full of misspelled words and homonym errors. Caleb is twice-exceptional. He has distinguishing strengths alongside complex challenges. This uneven profile of being far ahead in some areas and far behind in others is known as asynchronous development . It can often be challenging to know how to best support and even identify twice-exceptional students. In the case of a twice-exceptional dyslexic student, they may be able to use their gifts at language and processing to hide their struggles with reading. This can sometimes be called stealth dyslexia . For other students, their dyslexia takes center stage and masks their gifts, leaving them and those who want to see them succeed feel frustrated and confused. Dyslexic individuals have difficulty with reading, spelling, writing, and sequencing. Dyslexic individuals are also highly creative problem solvers, often entrepreneurs and leaders in their fields. (Part of this comes from their brain wiring, and part comes from the fact that challenges breed resilience , which is a necessary element for success.) Gifted traits and dyslexia traits can often overlap. Gifted traits include advanced reasoning, curiosity, problem-solving, creativity, and intense interests. Many gifted traits are the same as the gifts that come along with dyslexia. Gifted individuals and dyslexic individuals often prefer hands-on, project-based learning. In order to best support twice-exceptional dyslexic learners, it is important to consider 3 elements: interventions, accommodations, and strengths . In particular, twice-exceptional students often carry an emotional toll of trying to meet grade-level literacy demands while being intellectually ahead. Educators often struggle to find ways to nurture these students’ advanced intellect while also providing strategies that work for helping dyslexic students learn to read. 2e dyslexic learners may understand concepts at a very high level but struggle to express them on paper. They may compensate for these struggles by finding creative solutions to assignments. Educators can support these learners by providing flexible options for students, while staying true to the core goals of assignments. Some effective strategies for 2e dyslexic students include: Strength-based learning: encourage projects in areas of interest to ignite reading/writing Multiple ways to show mastery: oral presentations, multimedia projects, concept maps, or creative demonstrations, for example Explicit literacy support: phonemic awareness instruction, structured reading programs (e.g., Orton-Gillingham) Assistive technology and accommodations that allow access to curriculum without diminishing intellectual challenge:  audiobooks, text-to-speech Executive function scaffolds: breaking down assignments, providing templates Positive identity building:  celebrate creative problem-solving, innovation, and oral strengths, not just literacy skills Here’s an example of one parent’s story of how a teacher centered her dyslexic student’s strengths, while also supporting her challenges: “Given that my daughter is dyslexic, it's always a gamble whether teachers will focus on her gifted storytelling and writing skills, or focus on her weaknesses with handwriting, grammar, and spelling. So it was with a bit of trepidation that my husband and I sat down at our fall parent-teacher conference. Our fears were quickly put to rest - as soon as we sat down, he took a deep breath and said, slowly and with gravitas, “Do you know that your child is…  a writer ?” I could feel the tears of relief coming to my eyes immediately. He enthusiastically pulled out examples of her work, visibly excited about her creative storytelling skills. As we and the teacher looked over her work together, he mentioned that the next steps will be for him to work with our daughter on her spelling and grammar, beginning with his scaffolding during the editing process, and ultimately with the goal of her editing these elements on her own. My husband and I left feeling grateful that our daughter has had a teacher who recognizes and cultivates her gifts while also helping her work through her challenges, thereby bolstering her confidence and voice.” Diagnoses are empowering and are a critical first step. To get started, parents should seek 2e-informed evaluations  to assess both giftedness and dyslexia.  Dyslexia doesn’t limit intelligence, creativity, or potential. In fact,  thinking dyslexically is a strength . When giftedness and dyslexia are both recognized and supported, learners can thrive academically, socially, and emotionally.

In my work as a Licensed Educational Psychologist, one question comes up more than almost any other. After parents share what their child is struggling with, such as difficulty focusing, staying organized, or managing big emotions, they often pause and ask, “Is this ADHD, anxiety, or both?” If you’ve ever found yourself puzzling over your child’s struggles with attention, organization, or emotional regulation, you’re not alone. When behaviors overlap, it can be hard to tell what’s really driving them. ADHD and anxiety often look similar on the surface, especially in twice-exceptional (2e) kids . Understanding both the differences and the overlap is an important part of supporting your child’s learning journey. Why ADHD and Anxiety Are So Easily Confused Both ADHD and anxiety can show up as: Difficulty focusing Avoidance of schoolwork Emotional outbursts or shutdowns Trouble getting started on tasks Forgetfulness Challenges with following instructions Parents often describe a frustrating cycle. Their child puts off assignments, struggles to stay focused, and then worries about falling behind. The more anxious they feel about their performance, the harder it becomes to concentrate. Before long, both you and your child might wonder what’s really at the root of it all. That back and forth can feel endless, but understanding the connection between ADHD and anxiety is the first step toward breaking the cycle. ADHD: A Regulation Challenge, Not a Motivation Problem ADHD is a neurological difference in how the brain manages attention, impulses, and executive functioning . Kids with ADHD often: Want to focus but can’t sustain attention Lose track of time or materials Struggle with planning, organization, and follow-through Act quickly before thinking things through One of the most confusing aspects of ADHD is that these same kids can sometimes focus extremely well. When something is interesting or highly engaging, a child with ADHD may hyperfocus and become deeply absorbed. This can make it hard to understand why tasks like homework or chores feel so difficult. I often see kids who focus beautifully with structure, guidance, or strong interest. But when that support is removed, everything can fall apart. The same child who completes an assignment easily one day may struggle to get started the next. That’s the tricky part about ADHD. The skills aren’t missing, they’re just inconsistent . It isn’t about effort or motivation, but about the brain’s ability to regulate attention and access those skills when needed. Anxiety: When Worry Takes Over the Driver’s Seat Anxiety is different. An anxious child’s brain is focused on staying safe. You might see: Avoidance tied to fear of mistakes or failure Perfectionism or reassurance seeking Physical symptoms like headaches or stomachaches A child who seems spaced out but is actually caught in worry When the brain senses threat, even something like a tough assignment or fear of being wrong, the amygdala sends out an alarm. This fight, flight, or freeze response makes it hard to plan, problem-solve, or remember. At school or home, this can look like avoidance or shutdown—not defiance, but the brain’s way of protecting itself. When ADHD and Anxiety Co-Exist Many children, especially 2e learners, experience both ADHD and anxiety. Each can intensify the other, and treating only one often leaves families feeling stuck. This combination can look like: Meltdowns after school Big emotional reactions to small setbacks Increased avoidance as demands rise For 2e students, the overlap can be especially strong. These kids are often very aware of their abilities, so they notice when their performance doesn’t match what they know they can do. That awareness can lead to perfectionism, frustration, and worry about not meeting expectations. The result is a constant pull between high potential and real challenges with follow-through—a dynamic that can easily fuel both ADHD and anxiety. How Can You Tell the Difference? The key is to look at context  and consistency. With ADHD,  challenges appear across settings—home, school, and play. Stress levels may change, but inattention and disorganization are fairly consistent. With anxiety,  difficulties are more situational. Avoidance or inattention flare up when expectations feel high or stress increases, then fade when the worry passes. Notice what your child says. A child with ADHD might say, “I forgot again,”  or “I just can’t get started.” A child with anxiety might say, “What if I mess up?”  or “I don’t want to disappoint anyone.” Their words can offer clues about whether the challenge is rooted in distraction or fear. If you’re unsure, watch for patterns over time. Is the difficulty constant, or does it spike under stress? Does focus return when your child feels calm and confident? A comprehensive assessment that looks at attention, executive functioning, and emotional regulation together can clarify what’s really going on, and most importantly, how to support your child in a balanced, effective way. About the Author Erica Salzman is a Licensed Educational Psychologist based in Los Angeles. She specializes in strength-based assessment and support for neurodiverse learners, empowering families and schools to help every child reach their potential. Erica is the founder of The Exceptional Learner. www.theexceptionallearner.com

Watch the recording now: Understanding Motivation and Burnout in 2e and Neurodivergent Learners with Dr. Megan Anna Neff This discussion featured Dr. Megan Anna Neff, a licensed clinical psychologist, who explored the complex relationship between motivation, burnout, and neurodivergence  in twice-exceptional (2E) learners. The discussion provided a deep dive into how ADHD, autism, and giftedness uniquely impact a student's ability to engage with tasks and move toward their goals. Key Discussion Highlights from Motivation and Burnout in 2e and Neurodivergent Learners Reframing Motivation : Dr. Neff argued that what appears to be a lack of motivation is often the "tip of the iceberg," hiding underlying issues like executive functioning struggles, sensory overwhelm, or burnout. The ADHD Nervous System : The conversation highlighted that ADHD brains are driven by an interest-based nervous system  rather than importance or rewards, requiring dopamine-triggering factors like novelty, urgency, or passion to come "online". The "Switchboard" of Arousal : Dr. Neff explained how ADHDers often struggle with hypoarousal  (understimulation), leading them to seek out "negative" stimulation—like picking fights—just to feel engaged. Autistic Monotropism : For autistic learners, the discussion focused on monotropism  and the need for "flow state," where transitions and routine disruptions act as significant barriers to motivation. The Giftedness Trap : The speakers touched on how gifted students often face perfectionism  and a fixed mindset, where their identity is so tied to achievement that they avoid tasks that do not come easily. Neuro-Affirming Strategies : Rather than "hacks" to force compliance, Dr. Neff emphasized creating supportive environments  through body doubling, sensory regulation, and validating the child's distress before attempting to problem-solve. See the transcript here: Introduction and REAL Services Yael Valek, REEL: Welcome, everyone, to tonight's real presentation of Understanding Motivation and Burnout in two neurodivergent Learners with Dr. Megan Ananeth. And this presentation is also available in Spanish on the other channel. So, Kelly, if you can post that in Spanish in the chat, that would be great. In case you're not familiar with REAL, we are a non-profit located in Silicon Valley, and we work to ensure that Silicon Valley twice exceptional students thrive in school by raising parent and educator awareness and understanding of strategies to support their needs successfully. And in case you're not familiar with 2E, it is a student who has both distinguishing strengths, high abilities. And at the same time, they have complex challenges, such as ADHD, dyslexia, autism, and these two areas, the yellow and blue, overlap to make a green student, so they have distinguishing strengths and complex challenges at the same time, and because these interact in unique ways, they require support, that is different from support for only one of these exceptionalities at a time. And we'll learn more about that tonight. So, in case you're not familiar with REAL, we offer parent and educator services, including this expert speaker series that you're at tonight. We also have a bi-monthly parent support group, a private Google group with hundreds of parents asking and answering each other's questions. Free downloadable parent toolkits and other online resources, a school guidance guide, and then for small fees, we have a facilitated group and one-on-one consultations. These are all available at real2e.org . And this is an example of our brand new released parent toolkits that you can download, what happens when I first get a diagnosis, what does twice exceptionality mean, how can I work with my school, and a brand new, you are the first people to see it, the Parent's Guide to Neuropsych Evaluations, which we just published a couple days ago, working with Dr. Jessica Patel. And our big announcement is that our K-12 Strengths Fair is back for its second year on March 8th at the Los Altos Community Center. We have over 40 schools, enrichment providers, and clinicians coming that are all speaking about strengths, meeting with you about your child's strengths. We are also going to have the amazing Amanda Morin. Who's an award-winning author, nationally known speaker, speaking about why strength language is so important. We have other speakers about AI and about writing, and a lot of hands-on fun for kids to come tinker and figure out what lights them up, as well as ways to connect with other families and meet the real team. So we hope to see you there. Educator Services and Upcoming Events And as I mentioned, we also have educator services. We have professional development, such as learning different simulations, and we can customize things for your school. A lot of online resources for educators and recorded talks on subjects like writing and slow processing speed, as well as a bi-monthly educator newsletter. And REAL has an educator model that is available on our website that talks about why developing connection, embracing flexibility, attending to strengths, and reframing behaviors are so important for twice-exceptional and neurodivergent learners, and examples of how to do them across different age ranges. So you are at our first event of the Winter Spring 2026. Just wanted to let you know that we have a few other things coming up soon. Our Understanding Twice Exceptionality Small Facilitative Group kicks off very soon, February 3rd, and I mentioned our Strengths Fair, which will have 3 speakers. On March 15th, to kick off Neurodiversity Celebration Week, we have Dr. Stacey Greeter talking about After the diagnosis, how to talk about positive neurodivergent identity, and then we are going to have an executive functioning facilitated discussion group, and then talk about, on April 27th, when writing feels hard, how to manage emotions in 2E writers, and we'll round out the year on May 4th. With another talk related to motivation about how curiosity, connection, and confidence help with TUE students. And we do have our bi-monthly parent support group. There are still two sessions left on March 5th and May 7th, and you can find all of these on REAL's website. Callie's posting some of these links in the chat, but you can join our real Google group, follow us on social, and find all recordings of previous events on YouTube. Introducing Dr. Megan Anna Neff And now, without further ado, our amazing speaker for tonight. So, Dr. Megan Ananeth is a licensed clinical psychologist, author, and educator who specializes in neurodivergent affirming care. As a late-identified autistic and ADHD psychologist, she blends clinical expertise with lived experience to help families, educators, and clinicians understand neurodivergent inner worlds with nuance and compassion. Through her work at Neurodivergent Insights, she creates widely used tools, courses, and frameworks that translate complex psychology into accessible, empowering resources for everyday life. And we're so excited to have her here tonight, and she so graciously offered us, discount codes for real only. And I know Kelly's going to be posting some in the chat, so if you'd like to become more familiar with her resources and workbooks, which are amazing. You can do so. So I should probably pin Us? Spotlight us? I won't leave you alone. I'm coming. Megan Anna Neff: Perfect. Yael Valek, REEL: Callie, can you spotlight me with her so that she's not alone? Are we together? Okay. The Definition of Motivation and the Curiosity Gap So, Dr. Neff, I don't know if you wanted to say anything before I ask you… questions, otherwise I can get. Megan Anna Neff: You know, I do well with, structure, so… so feel free to, guide us with some questions. Yael Valek, REEL: Awesome. Okay, so I would love to know why do neurodivergent kids struggle more with motivation? I thought we could talk it through with different, diagnoses, so maybe starting with ADHD? Megan Anna Neff: Yeah, yeah. So, so many reasons. And so many reasons that we might call motivation, but might… or might look like motivation, but are actually other things. So… this might be a good time to let everyone who's here in the audience in on the backstory of tonight a little bit. Does that work? So, you reached out to me, I think a couple months ago, about doing this talk, and I was like, oh my goodness, I really want to, I love this topic, but I absolutely do not have bandwidth to create a presentation. Partly because I probably, like a lot of… people… people's children's in here can get very obsessive when I want to do a project or a presentation. So, I knew I didn't have bandwidth for that, so we talked about having it be just conversation-based, and… I needed to make it low enough entry So that I could get engaged. And that's going to be a theme that we talk about tonight, of how do we take out the pressure, especially for gifted and autistic learners, so that we can get engaged. So, you were very kind, and you lowered the pressure. You said, don't worry about a slide deck or a presentation, we can just have a conversation. But then as I was… preparing my notes, I was like, I really want visual prompts for these. So I kind of have what would be more of a monologue presentation style to answer that question, where I walk through ADHD, autism, and giftedness. So, I would love it to be conversational-based, though, because when I get monologue, it can feel… I can feel detached from people and the humanness. So… Would it be helpful if I walked through ADHD first with some of the visual guides? Yael Valek, REEL: Yep. Megan Anna Neff: Okay, this one's the longest, because… Adhd is definitely… The most, Kind of what comes to mind the most when we talk about… Motivation. The Motivation Iceberg Okay. I'm just getting all of my screens set up. It's nice when I can see some faces. So, I put this together… I think before walking through the three, because one thing that I see happen a lot for our neurodivergent kids, but also the adults, is that this… this phrase, motivation, can get used a lot. It's kind of what we see at the tip of the iceberg. And what… I actually had a lookup, I was like, what does motivation even mean? And the definition I liked the most was it's the thing that Activates us to do things that move us toward our goals. When we start looking at neurodivergence, a lot of things that make it hard There's a lot of things that make it hard to organize our actions toward our goals, and those often get called motivation struggles, and sometimes it is motivation, because we are human after all, so of course we can struggle with motivation. But often it's not motivation alone. Sometimes it's things like executive functioning challenges, or, other reasons that might make it hard for us to organize our behavior to move toward a goal. So I think one of the most powerful things we can do, whether we're a teacher or a therapist or a parent to help our children, is to pause and to get curious. Is this truly a motivation issue, or is there something else in the mix? It's, again, it's just so easy to Call what we see at the tip of the iceberg motivation. Because it's kind of a catch-all term when things aren't working well. But often for neurodivergent kids. It's not, as much I don't want to, as much as it is I can't, or sometimes a complex mix of both. And then, when the person's both neurodivergent and gifted, it can be really hard to tell the adult, I can't, because that can bring on a lot of shame. So a lot of this can stay invisible. So I think one of the ways that parents can really help reduce shame for kids, so that they can start talking about the struggles of what makes it hard to move toward their goals, is… is to get curious. I love that your upcoming talk on motivation at the end is, curiosity, connection, confidence. that's a beautiful equation for motivation. So yeah, when our kids seem unmotivated. Can we start wondering what else might be going on? Are there sensory things? Are there executive functioning things? Are they in burnout? Essentially, we want to become detectives, looking for… Almost assuming that their behavior makes sense, and then looking to understand why. So yes, next I'll walk through the different ADHD, autism, and giftedness, and talk about some of the barriers to motivation. It's a lot of information. Please, you don't need to absorb it all, especially if you, are neurodivergent yourself, it can be a lot to take in new ideas. It's more about, I think. Developing the ability to think this way, to think about, like, to pause and be like, okay, what else is going on here? Barriers to ADHD Motivation Okay, but yes, first we'll walk through ADHD. And there's kind of 5 areas I want to hit on here. Like I mentioned, ADHD is probably where we'll spend most of our time tonight, because this is where we see a lot of struggle with executive functioning and with getting ourselves engaged. And so, first of all, we'll talk about on-demand attention, so that's that ability to pay attention to this specific thing. Right now, unfortunately, a lot of the school systems and workplaces are built on the brains that do on-demand attention well, and then the struggle with executive functioning, that executive functioning is precisely the skills that help us to organize our behaviors to move toward, our goals. So, when we have struggles here, it can look a lot like motivation struggles. And then sequencing steps, this is related to executive functioning, but deserves its own, space. Emotion regulation, that is also harder for ADHD brains, and we need to be able to regulate some hard emotions to be able to do tasks. And then the one I'm probably most excited to talk about is this idea of understimulation and how that can connect to difficulty getting engaged. So first of all, on-demand attention. So this is that ability to, you know, focus on the thing right now. And ADHD attention just doesn't really behave this way. We can't muster up our attention in quite the same way that a non-ADHD brain can. And there's a handful of reasons for this, but one framework that I find incredibly helpful is this idea of the interest-based nervous system. So this comes from Dr. Dodson, who's a psychiatrist who's done a lot of great work in the last 30, 40 years on kind of pushing the conversation forward on ADHD, realizing it's so much more than distractibility and Kind of attention regulation struggles. And so, this idea, what it gets at is that non-ADHD brains, they more easily can run from an important space system. So, if something is personally important to you, or important to someone else, like a teacher or a parent. or if there's rewards or consequences. That's usually enough to mobilize the person's brain to get engaged and to attend to the task at hand. So, and then again, most of our systems in the world are built for brains that work this way. However, things that are simply important. don't bring the ADHD brain online in the same way. Rather, what drives us are things that are… that we're passionate about, things that are innately interesting. Things that are new or novel can also Help mobilize our attention, things that are challenging, not too challenging, or that can overwhelm us, but things that are challenging, or things that are urgent. So if you have children who wait till the night before to start an essay, you're seeing that urgency be the thing that finally kicks in. Enough dopamine that their neurons can talk to each other, and they can now get engaged. So all of these things, what they do is that they're mobilizing enough dopamine that our neurons kind of wake up and are able to get engaged with the task. So, for those of us who have an interest-based nervous system, dopamine plays an important part of this. Dopamine, it's really important for learning, but it's also really important for how it mobilizes us. It helps our neurons to be able to kind of more efficiently talk to one another. Without dopamine, the brain is more sluggish, and it can just be painful to try to get engaged. And so, it's not a matter of willpower or character, it is neurological. And so, understandably, ADHD brains then crave things that release dopamine, so that, our attention can come online. So it moves towards things that interest us. Our brains follow the dopamine. That's a big sentence in ADHD culture, follow the dopamine. And it's because that's when our brains are engaged. And so what that can look like, you know, it can look like a teacher or a parent might be requesting on-demand attention for a certain task, but if that task is important but completely uninteresting, you know, the child might look distractible because they're drifting off to follow the dopamine. And again, that's not a willpower thing, it's not a character thing, that's a neurological thing that's happening. Extrinsic vs. Intrinsic Motivation Yael Valek, REEL: So that's why our typical methods of reward and consequence. Megan Anna Neff: Yes. Yes, and it… we… it can, that one I want to nu… I'm so glad you said that, because I want to nuance that a little bit. If it's short-term enough, it actually can work. If it's… and I use it for myself, right? It's interesting, sometimes we kind of… Can shame… external motivation, and it's true, like, we know internal motivation is ideal. I use external motivation all the time, like, if it's… if I'm needing to, you know, do an afternoon of email, which is my least one of my least favorite tasks, I might make myself a mocha to go pair with it. And I do use extrinsic motivation, and one of my favorite things I've heard an ADHD adult say is releasing the shame of needing external motivation to get going. And so if the reward is close enough. It can actually help activate that, or if it's, like, connected to novelty. But yeah, if it's really far out there. That's… that's… We need to bring the feedback loop a lot closer. Yeah. Yael Valek, REEL: I was gonna say that, yeah, because I talk, you know, we talk about, oh, you should take… make it through this boring class with the terrible, you know, experience you're having, because someday he'll help you go to college. Megan Anna Neff: Yeah, that's way too far out there. Yes, yes. And so… and then I think, yeah, so much of the parenting advice, understandably, is about, like, don't… Take away intrinsic motivation, so then it's hard to find those kind of… Rewards that are close enough that it can mobilize. Yeah. Yeah, should we pause and talk anything else about the interest-based nervous system before I move on to executive functioning? Yael Valek, REEL: Someone said, if you are in charge of the extrinsic motivation, then it's a reward set by the person and aligned with their interests and needs. Megan Anna Neff: Yeah, that's a good point, yeah, because you'd align it with your interest. And it's… it's also… there's ways of bringing in pinch, which, I have some slides on for later. PINCH stands for passion, I've added play, passion or play, interest, novelty, competition, or challenge, or cooperation. And then hurry. There's… when we're thinking about how do we get an ADHD brain engaged. usha: Idiot. Megan Anna Neff: we want to build scaffoldings to build those in, and that can look like rewards, but it could also be novelty. It could be, I'm going to go do my homework, you know, in a new location, at a coffee shop, for example, to create some novelty for it. When we don't build in the scaffolding, we tend to all revert to hurry, which can just be hard on our nervous system, because then we're reverting to that fight-or-flight response to get everything done. Yael Valek, REEL: Makes sense. Megan Anna Neff: I think we can keep going, okay. Yael Valek, REEL: And come back, yeah, I'm sure questions will pop up. Megan Anna Neff: Okay, okay. So yeah, executive functioning, this is another significant barrier to motivation, or I'm not even sure it's accurate to say to motivation, but to doing the things that move us toward our goals. And as well as cognitive overwhelm. So, you know, the definition that most people use of it for executive function is it's the thing, the skills that help us organize our behavior toward our goals. Executive Functioning as Intelligence Organization So that's kind of One of the… probably more common definitions you'll hear, but another way that I like to describe it is that it is the things or the skills that help us to organize our intelligence. I like to describe it that way because executive functioning can sometimes get confused with intelligence, so someone can be highly intelligent. But really struggling to kind of, channel that, or activate that kind of, activate that intelligence because of their executive functioning struggles. And so that person might even not appear very intelligent if their executive functioning skills is pretty significant. Not because they aren't, but because the skills to organize that are struggling, and the person needs more supports. The flip side can also be true, where especially if someone has a high verbal intelligence, then their executive functioning needs can get missed. And so it's… helpful to differentiate these things, and I like the concept of thinking about executive functioning as the thing that helps organize our intelligence. It also helps explain why the 2E experience can be so painful, because it's like, they have the horsepower to go really fast, but the structure to help, kind of organize it and channel it is where the struggle is. And that can be more psychologically painful than if, kind of, you've got some executive functioning struggles and it matches your intelligence, like, in the sense of it's a more even profile. Because that gap between the two can create so much shame and distress of, like, I should be able to do this, but I just can't get myself to. And I think we see our kids struggling with that a lot of… it can create a lot of self-doubt and confusion. I'm not going to go through all these, and it sounds like you all have an upcoming event on executive functioning, which is perfect, but these are some of the skills that we're talking about when we're thinking about executive functioning, things like organizing, planning, the perception of time. Self-monitoring and, also being able to kind of stop ourselves from impulse and, ability to regulate emotions, all of these are connected to our executive functioning. Now, the one part of executive functioning I do want to highlight is this idea of task initiation, because this one especially gets confused for unmotivated quite a lot. So that's the act of initiating a new task, especially when the task is not interesting. That is really hard for the ADHD brain. A term that's often used in our community is neurodivergent inertia, that idea… That, you know, from Newton's idea that an object tends to stay in the same state of motion unless something shifts it. Adhd, and probably autistic people, too, we tend to be very similar to that, and so it can be really hard to make that transition and to start a new task. And then when we don't realize that those difficulties are based in executive functioning, in our neurology, it is so easy, both for ourselves, to slip into character-based narratives, but also for perhaps the narratives we have of our child, or for teachers' narratives of our child, for… to think it's about laziness, or procrastination, or defiance, or avoidance. When it's that… that child is struggling to get engaged and to make that transition. Redefining "Lazy" and Sequencing Tasks Yael Valek, REEL: I definitely hear my son calling himself lazy. Megan Anna Neff: Yeah, and I think that's… I mean, that's part of what a neurodivergent affirming framework does, right, is we can give our children language, because people will look for language to describe something, and that's the language that they'll have access to, is lazy. And when we can give our kids the language of, like, oh, okay, yeah, your brain's struggling to transition here, And… or the language of task initiation. Like, in our family, it's now become really normal. If we ask each other for things, we'll be… we'll be like, okay, my brain's gonna need 5 minutes to, like. transition out of what I'm doing before I can. And so also just normalizing that when we make asks of each other, it's like, are you in a place to transition out? How many minutes do you need for that? Yeah, so much of parenting is around creating language that we can all use. This one's also connected to executive functioning, just the ability to sequence tasks. And so, ADHD also makes that particularly challenge, the ability to break down a complex task, but also just to know, kind of, what steps come next. And then again, complicating things. If a child's struggling here, they might simply say, I don't want to. Especially… again, especially if the child's gifted, because saying, I can't, could bring on a lot of shame. But it might be that they have bumped into a skill that they… that is underdeveloped. When we think about sequencing tasks, there's a lot of executive functioning that goes into that, like, Context awareness and working memory to know what's already been done, what's missing, what's changed, the ability to break down the task. working memory, so that ability to hold information in mind, and that can be incredibly challenging. The cognitive flexibility of being able to shift Especially if one step doesn't go as planned. Time perception, being able to estimate how long parts of it will take. And then distress tolerance, the ability to handle all of the emotions that come up when a step perhaps doesn't go as planned. So if a child has a large project they're working on, there are often so many steps along the way that require all of the executive functioning skills. And then again, if the child's gifted. we, as parents, might not realize how much help they need to be able to break tasks down and say, okay, let's look at this together and let's break it down. It can be easy to miss those executive functioning skills, and so it can just look like They became unmotivated and dropped the project. Parenting Support and Emotional Regulation Yael Valek, REEL: Especially, I've noticed as people transition into middle and high school, and we're told as parents, you should no longer be helping your child. They should be doing this on their own by this age. Megan Anna Neff: I feel like shame comes up a lot around this topic of motivation, both for our kids, but also for us as parents. We can have a lot of shame-based narratives of, like, I shouldn't be sitting here helping my child break this down. I'm told, yeah, I'm told that my child should be able to do this, this is an important skill. And then again, especially if they're also gifted. And they have a high verbal intelligence, it can bring on shame of. Am I… like, am I over-accommodating my child and making them dependent on me? I think there's so much… there's so much fear. I mean, I… myself included, and I'm in community with a lot of parents, there's so much fear of, like, am I doing this right? Because there's not… there's not a clear roadmap, there's not… the guidelines that the schools tell us, and the others, the professionals tell us, don't always work for our kids. Yeah, so we also probably have shame in our own parenting that we have to work through, and a ton of doubt. Yael Valek, REEL: Yes. Megan Anna Neff: And then there's emotional regulation. Again, it's really easy to miss how much our children need support here. So, one of my children She started talking at 7 months, like, her first words. She was speaking full sentences by 11 months. She, I think, had over 300 words when she was 1, so she was talking like a mini-adult when she was 3 or 4. And because she sounded so sophisticated, one of the deep regrets that I have from parenting her when she was young is I completely missed how much support she needed around emotion regulation, because I kept thinking, she talks like a mini adult, and therefore her emotions should be like a mini-adult. And so, the tricky thing is, for our ADHD gifted students, their verbal intelligence can be way above their age range, but their executive functioning and emotional regulation is often 2 to 3 years lagging behind their peers. And again, that gap between the two can cause So much pain and confusion, both for the person, but also for us as parents, and it can be just so hard to… so easy to miss, how much support they need, and I've certainly been there. Yael Valek, REEL: Yes. Megan Anna Neff: And whenever we're getting ourselves to do tasks, there's a lot of emotions that come with that. Some emotions that kind of activate the nervous system, so that bring it into that heightened emotional experience. Things like anxiety or perfectionism or urgency or pressure. And so, being able to regulate the arousal enough that we're able to do the work, but then there's also some emotions, you know, hypoarousal, so dampening emotions that kind of make us foggy, so things like boredom, shame, hopelessness, overwhelm. And so, we also need to be able to regulate those emotions to be able to do the task. And then, again, especially if the person's also gifted, they might naturally tend to gear toward the tasks that are easiest for them, because then they don't have to confront these hard emotions. So then when they… they are confronted with tasks that aren't coming easy for them, that can be particularly challenging. Nervous System Arousal and Understimulation Yael Valek, REEL: This one is your favorite, you said. Megan Anna Neff: I just, so I'm writing a book right now on the Audi HD experience, and I'm really excited. I've, I've written… all my books so far have been just on autism. So I just finished the chapter on the nervous system, and so I was reading some… some newer studies, and I just… I find it all very fascinating, and interesting. Yael Valek, REEL: So many hearts are coming up since you said you're writing that book. Megan Anna Neff: Oh, oh, thank you. So, this thing, I think this is such a helpful framework. And it's the idea that, when a task is understimulating, it is so hard to get ourselves engaged. In general, all of us as humans, we benefit from being in that ideal, like, arousal window for a task at hand. And by arousal, I'm talking about physiological arousal, so, like, nervous system arousal. So, for example, right now. in my nervous system, I feel pretty well matched for the task at hand. I need to have enough arousal, otherwise you all would be so bored, and I'd be talking so slow, and my face would be flatter than it normally is. But if I was over, if I had too much arousal, I'd be really anxious, I'd be tripping over my words, and it would be hard to do this task. Ideally, our nervous systems behave in a way that we have enough arousal that we can do the task at hand. Now, both ADHD and autism, we see patterns where our, our nervous system, our specifically our autonomic nervous system, behaves a little bit differently. We have some different arousal patterns, you could say. One way I'm starting to think about ADHD is that it's a difficulty with regulating our arousal levels, that that's really at the heart of the ADHD experience. And so… here's the part of the emerging research that I find really interesting. So we know that both ADHD and autism show patterns of differences in arousal. And it's not 100% of ADHDers and 100% of autistic people, the research is mixed, I don't want to kind of oversell anything. But this research felt counterintuitive to me, and I think that's why it excites me so much, is what they were finding is the ADHD person tends toward… at rest and during cognitive tasks, especially repetitive ones, their nervous systems tend to go into hypoarousal, so that's that kind of foggy, shut down, low energy. And my intuitive thinking, I was like, well, I would have thought autism did that, because I associate all my fatigue with autism, and I associate my energy with ADHD. And so that's why it felt counterintuitive to me. But once I… paused, it actually made sense, because I thought about, what do I… what do I do when I'm in a really boring movie… Meeting? Well, I start moving my body more, I start jittering my leg, I maybe start daydreaming. And so… and one of the studies, what they found is that those who tended more toward hypoarousal as their baseline had more hyperactivity and more impulsivity. And again, we tend to think of hyperactivity and impulsivity as, like, oh, this person has so much excess energy. Well, one of the theories is, this is actually a way of compensating. Like, it… And I think the ADHDers in the room will probably relate to this. It is just a soul-sucking experience when we are in that… when we're bored, when we're in that state of shutdown. and low arousal. it feels… like, the way I describe it, I feel like I want to crawl out of my skin. And so we will do anything to create arousal, to bump ourselves up. we will pick a fight with a sibling. If we're adults, we might… cause drama. Like, it… negative arousal is better Than being in that hypoaroused state. And so, when the task at hand, because it's a boring task, or the environment isn't giving us the arousal we need, an ADHDer will create it. And so what that could look like, let's say you're trying to do homework, and all of a sudden, your child is like, I want a snack, I want music, they're moving, they're fidgeting, maybe they're picking a fight. it could look like distractibility, but it's actually… they're compensating, they're trying to get their arousal up. When I don't have enough arousal, I'll start checking my email more, and I'll get distractibility, I'll create it. So I have to, like, build it into my environment so that I don't go looking for it. And so this part about getting us into that ideal arousal window so that we don't find it through distraction, I think is a part of the ADHD experience that, I just think is really, really helpful to start thinking through our behavior through this arousal lens. Sensory Strategies for Regulation Yael Valek, REEL: I think you're gonna talk about it later, but I don't know, like, what can… what's a healthy… arousal piece we could put in place as parents, let's say when our kid is struggling to do their homework so that they're not picking a fight, and. Megan Anna Neff: Well, I can be non-linear here, especially because I… first of all, I just really appreciate that this is conversational and not just, me talking out of camera for a long time, because I was about to pivot to autism, but what we could do is I could talk about the supports for ADHD. And then we could go back to autism, and just do it a bit differently. But actually, let me answer your question. Cause I have… I have some slides. Yael Valek, REEL: But if it's too hard to make you go out of sequence, we can… I can hold my questions. Megan Anna Neff: No, it's nice and novel, and it's my taste. I have enough predictability, because I have my slide deck, and then… that I can be a little bit spontaneous. Yeah, so I… the big thing here is, can we… and this is where I love talking about sensory stuff, I love, like, helping people understand their sensory system, because yes, it's about, you know, knowing our sensory triggers, but it's… it also can become an energy and emotion, management tool, in the sense that the sensory elements around us can be alerting, or they can be soothing. So, for example, right now, I have a weighted blanket on my lap. That's… that's soothing. If in the afternoons, I often get tired, and I might do, like, a carbonated cold drink, because that's an alerting stimulus. So, learning about our sensory environment is huge for this, because Sensory input is a powerful way of creating arousal in our environment. So this, and this is one I provided, a PDF that you're… you're free to distribute to your community, and one of them is this thing I call the, the stimulus meter. So, it's a simple little exercise of just doing a stimulus check-in, of, okay, am I understimulated right now, or am I overstimulated? Or perhaps I'm both. As an autistic ADHDer, sometimes I'm both. And then it's considering, okay, what can I add right now That's gonna either upregulate me, so again, cold. like, a cold drink, or music. One of my favorite, I'll listen to a STEM song, when I'm trying to focus, and the fact that it's repetitive means it doesn't distract me too much, but it's enough to increase my arousal. And so, STEM music, it could be, maybe LED lights if, if, you know, the child's really responsive to, like, kind of visual stimulus. Could be a spicy snack. And then if we're overstimulated, it can be things like dimming the lights, because again, if we're overstimulated, it's also going to be hard to get engaged. Oh yeah, this is the PDF I mentioned that kind of walks you through an exercise of how to think through, okay, what's up-regulating, what's down-regulating. Another resource, Autism Level Up, has something called the Regulator 2.0, and you walk through each sensory system. And kind of map out what it does to your energy. So that can be another really great resource for helping your, children learn, like. what is stimulating for them. Because, again, if we bake it into the environment, it means they're not needing to create The stimulus, either through, Behavior that's gonna create a response, or through destructibility. The PINCH Framework for Engagement Should I talk a little bit about how to use the interest-based nervous system? Because that's actually related, because part of why the interest-based nervous system works is because it's, it's enough stimulus, again, to get us out of that hypoactivity and get our brains engaged. So this is that pinch framework that I mentioned a moment ago. which is, PINCH is just a helpful acronym, because it helps us, kind of. think, remember it, passion or play, or interest, or hurry, novelty and competition. Really, it's about how do we find an entry point for engagement? Because a lot of it with ADHD is… is the act of getting ourselves engaged, and so that's where we can use a bit more support. I'm gonna kind of skim through these, I won't walk through them in detail, but feel free to pause and we can talk about these or ask questions. But, passion and play… Yael Valek, REEL: I was accidentally sharing their screen, I don't know how that happened, but . Megan Anna Neff: Oh, like, am I not sharing my screen? Yael Valek, REEL: they sort of bumped you somehow, so I think you'll have to repair. I've never seen that. I'm so sorry. There you go, you're back. Megan Anna Neff: Did… was this slide seen? Yael Valek, REEL: That was the slide you were on, yeah. Megan Anna Neff: Okay. Yes, so this one… I'm gonna walk through the acronym pretty quickly, but we… we can pause and talk about any of them, but PASSION and… and then I like to add PLAY. I love talking about play, too. PLAY is actually, really serious business, like, from a child development standpoint, it's… it's kind of where we… forge a sense of self and identity. And play is also so good for co-regulation and emotion regulation. So, you know, especially if your family's, you know, at all like mine, and if, like, mornings are hard, or getting ready for bed, or times that are hard, these are a great time that we can infuse play, and it can also help us, because I know for me. by the, you know, fourth time we're talking about getting ready for bed, I'm… I might start to be feeling grumpy, too. And so that might be a time where I'm like, okay. let's see if you can beat me. We're both gonna try and get ready for bed. Let's see who can do it fastest. And my son is at a point where he's like, I know what you're doing, but it still works. Or, you know, we can do… we can infuse dancing or teeth brushing. I know that can be hard for sensory reasons for a lot of our children, so can we incorporate, like, music or a dance, some… some way to, again, help regulate the emotions of, like, that's… that's an uncomfortable experience. Gamifying tasks. So these are all ways that we can infuse, especially friction points, and to make it a bit lighter. I think the thing that we do want to be mindful of is. If we're infusing it with play, we want to be able to access a playful spirit. If we're using it as a tactic. kids, especially these kids, will, like, pick it up so fast and be like, oh, you're trying to manipulate me. So we have to actually be in the playful spirit as well when we introduce this to our children. Interest? So this is… we can kind of stack or layer, so we can combine tasks that have high interest, or we can link, if, you know, if you go to schools that use project-based learning, or in middle school and high school, in college, it gets a little bit easier. Novelty and Cooperation Like, I… in college, I think I made every research paper about my special interest, so the more we can link things to our passions and interests. For a lot of ADHDers, just making it more visual tends to increase the interest, or using multimedia, or having space to explore the side quests. It's not a distraction, it's actually what makes the task interesting. And then I mentioned this, a bit ago, but this is… especially if you have someone who tends to tend toward hypoarousal, novelty is one of those things. Whenever we're exposed to new stimulus, that's, up-regulating. When we're exposed to predictable stimulus, that's down-regulating. Good for autistic people. And then, you know… When you're audio HD, you want both predictable and novel stimulus. It's really confusing. But this can be as simple as adding in some new sensory elements, you know, like, smell or taste, or it could be going to a whole new environment. It might even just be changing the furniture. My spouse jokes that my son and I change the furniture of our rooms constantly, and that's part of what we're doing, is we're making the space feel more new and novel. So C can be challenged, and again, we want to make sure it's in that kind of ideal window. If it's too challenging, that'll be, too much, but if it's… if it's a challenging task, that will get a lot of ADHDers engaged. But the other one is cooperation, so… Many of you might be familiar with this concept of body doubling, but it's that idea that simply doing something with another human, even virtually, that that's something that often helps us get engaged, so maybe it's body doubling homework of, like, sitting there with your child, and that's also helping with co-regulation, and it's helping to mobilize them. They're more easily often able to get engaged when we can body double with them. My mom, you know, we didn't know I was ADHD, but she was so helpful. I struggled so much with keeping my room clean as a kid. And it was one of those things where… she might have gotten messages of, you know, as a teenager, I should have been able to do it, but she'd come in the room with me and body double it and be like, okay. okay, Anna, I went by Anna as a kid. We're gonna start with this corner, and then we'll move on to the next. There is so much that she was doing for me. She was helping me sequence the tasks, because my brain couldn't, she was body doubling. And again, we might have narratives of, like, my kid should be able to clean their room, but they actually might need a body double to be able to do it. Yael Valek, REEL: someone is saying that they use body doubling for laundry, so I guess they fold right next to them, their kid folds next to them. Megan Anna Neff: Oh, that's such a good… yeah, yeah. Yeah, body doubling is, and especially if we're also ADHD, like, it can be helpful for us, too. And then the last one's hurry or urgency, and again, this kind of becomes the default one, but that can be hard on our nervous system. So, we want to draw on the other ones as much as possible, but then what we can also do is kind of create, like, faux hurry. Creating Healthy Pressure So, like, if we are breaking down the task, into smaller steps, and then we can give, like, we can help Create timelines for each of those, or deadlines, so that there's not, like, a 15-page essay that's due the next day. Or even for younger kids using visual timers, or, like, when my kids were younger, we would use the beat the clock, like, can you get ready before the clock? Goes off in 5 minutes. Also, as a side note, all of these… all of this has been so good for my ADHD-dominant kid. For my autistic PDA child, I use none of this. So this… this… these practices tend to be really good for ADHDers, but for autistic… Especially PDA, this can… it can create too much pressure. And then whenever we're incorporating any of these. We want to be kind of…having an experiment, or experimental, or, like, I'm gonna infuse the moment with this, not a… I'm gonna trick you into doing the thing. I actually ran a course in the community I run where we went through all of this for the adults, just because we were trying to help ourselves get engaged. And that was the big thing that we all noticed, is when we started using any of these tactics as a way of self-manipulation, it totally backfired. But if it was, like. Well, I'm, you know… I'm gonna experiment with this, or I'm gonna try this as an engagement. It tended to go a lot better. So, how we approach this matters. Probably even more so than any of these practices. I think this was the last one for ADHE, is just executive functioning supports. This one, I'm sure your community, already has a sense of how important this is. Body doubling, again, that's a way of supporting executive functioning, using visual supports. Not all of us, but a lot of us are visual thinkers, or can also help with working memory. And then building out systems that support organization, so there's less the child's holding in mind, or that we're holding in mind. Because of that, that working memory can only hold so much. And then we can also approach it with some almost, like, backward logic or backward reasoning, where we can identify, like, okay, where are they struggling? So maybe they're struggling with task initiation. So then it's like, okay, let's bring in some engagement support, which would be a lot of the, like, pinch and the interest-based nervous system and the stimulus. Maybe it's really… it's the transitions that are hard for them. It's, okay, how do we do more transition prep? And help prepare that. Or if it's the sequencing, it's okay, how do we sit down together and support breaking down the tasks? So kind of identifying where they're struggling, and then backward planning. So… kind of the way I'm starting to think of it is, more so than asking, like, what practices or tips or kind of hacks help motivate my ADHD child or my ADHD self, I like to think about it more about what… where does ADHD motivation grow? And I think it grows in environments where, you know, bodies can move, and where interest is sparked, and where… their needs are really normalized and supported, instead of being shamed or disciplined. I think that then, naturally, that allows ADHD motivation to grow, and to flourish. So, I think it's less about, kind of, finding Ways to motivate our kids, and more about how do we create the environment that allow… allow this motivation to thrive. Yael Valek, REEL: Love that. Balancing AuDHD Needs: Predictability and Novelty So, we talked about ADHD, what about autism? And then, of course, what about when you have both? Megan Anna Neff: Yes, I'll try to weave that in a little bit. Yael Valek, REEL: Because I'm just thinking, how do I create predictability and novelty simultaneously? It sounds like it's having a slide deck, but being able to jump around it. Megan Anna Neff: Yeah, I… I think of, like, sometimes I talk about, if my autism can create, like, a really safe container, then my ADHD feels like it has the freedom to play. So I think a lot of it's about containment, and if we can provide enough Enough secure predictability. then the ADHD doesn't feel as threatening. Like, one parent in my community, I love it, he does a… I forget what he calls it, he has a clever name for it, but it's like. scheduled spontaneity, or scheduled impulse purchase, and he and his daughter… I can't remember if it's once a week or once a month, I think it's probably once a month, they'll take a Saturday, and they'll go to, you know, like a Target, and they'll do impulse purchasing. And so it's scheduled impulse purchasing, or scheduled spontaneity. And to me, I'm like, that is so autistic ADHD friendly, of like. We're gonna be spontaneous, but we're also gonna plan it, or we're gonna do some impulse purchasing, but we're gonna plan it. Yeah, yeah. Okay, So motivation can also be tricky for autistic people, but for… often for kind of slightly different reasons. Autism: Monotropism and the Flow State I think it tends to be more about the hidden demands that are also being asked of the person, that the people around that person maybe don't realize. So, for example, what I mean is maybe that activity is going to lead to a lot of routine disruption that's going to be dysregulating. Or maybe it's about not under… struggling to understand the instructions and decoding them, or it's about energy, or the fact that it would be a very sensory, overwhelming task. So I'll walk through some of these. I think the first one, this is similar to the, kind of, ADHD struggle with transitions, but it's slightly different. It's this idea that… so the autistic mind is a deeply monotropic mind, and by that, I mean… our minds do best when we can focus on things that are narrow and deep. And, you know, there's a lot of different theories about what autism is, and I don't think we're gonna come to a nice, agreement anytime soon, but one of the theories I really like is this idea of thinking about autism at its core as kind of this monotropic state, or where we're constantly trying to get back into flow state. And there's some interesting research that we more easily get into flow state than non-autistic people. And there's an interesting article I read a while back that described how a lot of the quote-unquote symptoms of autism are often a response to the absence of flow state, or a way of trying to get back into it. And so, especially if our kids are doing school, middle school or high school, that is so not monotropic friendly. Your attention is being forced and split into so many different places that they're gonna come home and crave, like, deep monotropic time. That's where we recharge, it's how many of us regulate our emotions. And so, I think things that can look like resistance or avoidance, it's often a protection, a protection of that monotropic time, and then that desire to get back into that flow state where they're able to recharge and regulate. I really love this word. I'm really not great at pronouncing most words, so I… I… Taekwon…Actually, I'm not even gonna try. I have phonetical dyslexia, which makes pronunciation very hard. Megan Anna Neff: But it's, it's a, more… more… the more people of New Zealand have this word for autism, and I have never resonated with something more… So deeply. It's this idea of autism as people who are in their own time and space. And I think, again, this captures that flow state of for so many of us, our natural instinct is to be in our own time and space, and when we don't have much of that, we crave it. And so, it might look like our autistic kids are not interested in extracurriculars, and yeah, I mean, school is creating so much monotropic split for them that they need so much time to be able to Come back to their own time and space and recover. Yael Valek, REEL: That's so interesting. We found… figured that out without knowing this, that, we changed my son's entire school schedule, so he has a lot of time to do his interests between classes. That is how he is able to recharge and have the energy to do the topics he's not interested in. Megan Anna Neff: I love that you first, like, knew that, and then were able to work with your school to do that, because, yeah, interest is really… it's where we recharge, it's where we, regulate our hard emotions. It's so… it's so soothing. And so, especially when we can kind of break… add that into the day, so it's like moments to regroup before doing a hard thing. That's… I'm so… glad that you all were able to create that. I wish every autistic kid could have that school experience. Strategic Withdrawal and Routine Protection Yeah. Yael Valek, REEL: We did switch. We switched to, sort of a homeschooling, self-made model in order to make this work. Megan Anna Neff: I was gonna say, like, that doesn't sound like a. Yael Valek, REEL: I know not everyone can do that, but I have heard of schools that do give kids breaks in between to… There's something else between classes, so… Megan Anna Neff: Yeah, and if they're able to engage their interests, so that they can get into that kind of restorative place, yeah, absolutely, yeah. And then avoidance or withdrawal can also be an energy management system. So, I feel like… so, autistic people, we just need a lot of rest. Like, the world, masking, it's just all so… very taxing and costly. It's interesting, because avoidance, especially in the mental health space, this is often kind of tagged as a negative thing, because it's often associated with depression and anxiety, and it can be that, even for autistic people, so we do want to tease it out. But there's this idea of… that autistic people also will sometimes use strategic withdrawal as an adaptive way to manage energy and manage sensory spoons. And so sometimes avoidance or withdrawal, you know, it might be because there's some mental health things going on that we want to look into, but it might also be strategic for that person. And so one way we can check in here is kind of, you know, the thing that the child might call it, or the other people might call it, is laziness, but okay, is this actually laziness, quote-unquote, or is this kind of a clever energy management tool my child's using when they need to withdraw a lot? And then routine disruptions, you know, if we're putting new activities on or new tasks, that can, disrupt… disrupt routines. A big part of how our minds work… so in general, like, our minds are prediction machines, kind of all human minds, And then, for autistic people, our prediction maps are more narrow, so many of us, we might learn scripts or templates for what is about to happen, and we rely on those pretty heavily because our prediction processing is more narrow, and so when the world goes off script, so for example, maybe we prepared for a social encounter with two friends, but one person unexpectedly invited someone else. All of a sudden, the world's gone off script, and that completely can throw the autistic person off. Or maybe you're running errands with your child. And you were gonna run two, and then it's like, oh, wait, we're also gonna stop by the bank real quick. And that… adding that third Aaron absolutely, causes a meltdown, because the world's now gone off script. Or an autistic child might Like, avoid school rather than have a sub if they know there's gonna be a sub, because it's just so anxiety-inducing to think about, all the ways that routine's gonna be disrupted. And so, this is another area where, what can look like resistance or avoidance could be a protection, around routine. So, another check-in here can be something like, you know, are we, Is this… is this resistance, or is this… is this somehow providing prediction and… and protection? Jeannie: Yeah. Sensory Adversity and Understanding "Why" Megan Anna Neff: And then, of course, sensory. So, sensory is a big reason that we might avoid things. Children don't always have the language for this, though. They might just know they feel bad, or that they don't like something. But they might not be able… you know, most of us don't have sensory language. I didn't have it till a few years ago, till I started learning this stuff. I just knew I didn't like certain things. So it might be… like, it might look like your child's unmotivated to eat healthy, but maybe there's something about the sensory texture of fruit or vegetables. And so, again, really being able to do that drill down of What's actually going on here, and are there some sensory adversities here that are getting in the way? And then just simply understanding instructions, you know, instructions are really confusing, especially some of the academic instructions, like in English, essay instructions can be very abstract. Autistic people, we tend to have what's called bottom-up processing, meaning we take in the details, and we take in the sensory information, and then we kind of build up to the whole picture. And so, decoding the instructions can often be really confusing, and so we might… we might, disengage because we simply don't understand the instructions. And again, a child might also have shame about the fact that they don't understand the instructions. similar but slightly different. Also, like, connecting to the why, like, why am I being asked to do this? You know, if ADHD's motivation system is driven by interest, I would say the autistic motivation system is driven by meaning. Like, we need to be able to connect to the why. If, for me, if I don't have the why, I can't orient around the task, and I'm definitely not going to mobilize my limited energy to do something if I don't understand the purpose of it. So it's also about understanding the why and being able to connect with the why. And for most autistic people and children, because I said so is not good enough of a why. And so, kind of being able to understand, especially in some academic spaces where it can feel like busy work. And then another thing that can happen is we can be extra literal with instructions, and then end up doing a lot of extra work. People don't always realize that being very literal with instructions often means that we end up doing more work than, perhaps the teacher intended. So that's another kind of block that can come up here. I might skip this one just for time. Giftedness: Distress Tolerance and Perfectionism This is also about bottom-up processing. I'll come back to it if someone has a question later about it. So maybe I'll… briefly review giftedness, and then we can, we can shift here a little bit. I'm looking at time. I didn't give as much time to giftedness as I did autism and ADHD. I probably didn't do it justice, but partly that was for timing and pacing, but also partly because it can be hard to tease out the blocks that are specific to giftedness, and what's kind of… maybe even historically been attributed to giftedness, but is actually neurodivergent traits. But a few that I definitely see here that are specific to giftedness are things like, underdeveloped skills around managing stress or distress tolerance, kind of the ability to persist when a task doesn't come easily. Partly they might have less experience with this, typically because maybe a lot of tasks did come easily for them, so then when they come to a task that doesn't, they haven't had the chance to develop that muscle of, like, what it's like to persist when something's not easy. And then this can also connect in some pretty complex ways. to perfectionism, or a fear of failure. Gifted children, are often quite impressive from a young age, especially if they have high verbal intelligence, and so they can get a lot of positive feedback from the adults around them, and pretty early on can start to kind of forge a sense of. identity of, like, I matter, because of my achievements. And then what can happen is I can't make a mistake, I can't fail, because my sense of self, my sense of worth is tied into that. And so that can make it hard to then try things that don't come easy, which it can become a sort of feedback loop of if we aren't trying things that don't come easily. We're not given a chance to develop those distress tolerance skills, so this can kind of Become a complex feedback loop of our identities tied to not making mistakes, which makes it hard to develop the distress tolerance skills. And then also boredom understimulation, just if, you know, if they're kind of cognitively beyond their peers in the classroom, they're also going to be understimulated in ways that are slightly different than ADHD. Yael Valek, REEL: I think it's also super common for gifted kids to have a fixed mindset, especially based on the praise they get. Megan Anna Neff: Yeah, yeah. Yes, absolutely, I've noticed that as well. Validation and Growth Mindset in Gifted Kids And I think it's partly because of how threatening it can feel to make a mistake. When your sense of value is connected to being impressive. Yael Valek, REEL: The other thing someone is saying is, isn't orienting to the why also stem from giftedness? Someone… she's saying, there's a lot of similarities between the giftedness and the autism. Megan Anna Neff: There are, and this is where I, like… I… I mean, I still get confused with this, too. Like, for a long time, what was happening… was, there were a lot of gifted autistic and gifted ADHD people, and the neurodivergence was being missed. And so, I think part of what started happening is… people might not love this… I think giftedness got too big as an umbrella, in that it started saying, oh, this is a gifted thing, but it was a neurodivergent trait, but we didn't know it was autism or ADHD, because only in recent years have we gotten better at identifying, you know, ADHD and autistic girls, or ADHD or autistic people with higher IQs. So it gets really tricky to say, is this… truly a gifted thing, or is this an autistic thing? I think the need to know why can certainly be both. A lot of gifted people tend to be deep existential thinkers, so they absolutely also need to know the why. But yeah, it can get really… Kind of confusing around what's giftedness and what's neurodivergence. Yael Valek, REEL: 2E profiles, definitely a confusing one. Is that, let me know if you wanted to move on to other questions? Megan Anna Neff: I… so actually, I… what I might try to do… this might be a little more spontaneous than my brain can handle, but what I might want to do, I actually…because I want to leave room for questions, because I see it's 8, so I might just pull up slides if they're relevant, but I actually do want to pull up one… In response to what someone just said around giftedness, and the fixed mindset. And that's… one of the things that I think is really helpful here, and I've learned a lot from Dr. Danica Maddox, I don't know, have you had Dr. Maddox? Yael Valek, REEL: Since both. Okay. Megan Anna Neff: Yeah, I was like, this feels like… like, her space. So I, I've learned a lot. what… and we had her on our podcast, and it was a great conversation. I should share the link to that. But she talks about the importance of validation, and I think this makes so much sense to me. Because gifted people do tend to be so existential, so deep, have complex emotions, it is so important to lead with validation. And it's so… tempting, and I say this as someone who… I have fallen into this pitfall, it is so tempting to want to, like, logic or reason Validating Distress Before Reframing my child out of their feelings. But the power of taking a beat to first validate before we do any reframing. So… for example, you know, like, it makes sense, you feel that way. That sentence right there, it makes sense, you feel that way, is probably one of the most helpful ways to de-escalate, emotions or experiences, especially if it's a complex, big emotion, or something like. you weren't expecting that. This is one… this is what Dr. Donica really taught me, and I have… oh, this icon's there, I have a script of validating scripts that we put together. That's also in the PDF I included. We were talking about the growth mindset idea. And I was talking about, oh yeah, how important it is to teach growth mindset to gifted kids. And she said something that has really helped my parenting of. Sometimes, for gifted kids, if we rush too quickly to say… like, let's say they're working on an art project, and they make a mistake of, like, mistakes happen, befriend the mistakes, or it's beautiful. That we miss their distress, that for them, it is so distressing that they had a picture in their mind of what they wanted it to be, and it's not that. So to first say, like, it didn't turn out the way you wanted it to be. to first validate the distress before going to the growth mindset. And I think for kids that have big, complex, existential feelings. Having people that can create space for that, to first validate that before… you know, it's so easy for me to want to, yeah, try to get into a logical argument around some of the deep existential worries that my kid has to try and reassure her, but sometimes the most reassuring thing is to, like, validate, yeah, it's scary right now. It makes sense you feel that way. Yael Valek, REEL: I need to do a better job of this. I was rushed to a solution. Yeah, or to try to, yes, talk them out of it. Yeah. Bottom-Up Processing: The "School of Fish" Megan Anna Neff: So yeah, I do have more slides, but should we. Yael Valek, REEL: We do have a few more minutes if you, I didn't know if there's anything else about, supporting autism that you wanted to… that we skipped, or. Megan Anna Neff: We did, we did skits. Abby Kirigin, REEL: asked about that bottom-up slide, if you want to go through that. Yael Valek, REEL: Oh, okay. Thanks, Abby. Megan Anna Neff: Okay, on the bottom-up slide, yeah. So, so bottom-up processing, again, it's that idea that we take in details and then build up to the big picture. And so… this can make… it means that we're often swimming in a lot of details, and it's also part of what makes instructions, I think, harder to understand or decode, but it also just makes projects more complex. This metaphor comes from Dr. Jonathan Dalton, who does a lot with anxiety and autism. And he uses this metaphor of… so, one of the reasons that fish swim together in a school of fish is because it's protective. Like, when they're swimming together in a school, the shark doesn't know where to bite. Because it's going too fast. And that that's often the experience for autistic people, is there's so much information that it's like, we don't know where to bite into it, so we don't know where to start the project. But it's a little bit different than ADHD, because it's… there's so many details, I don't know where to start. The other way I see this show up for myself, and certainly for my children, is… It's like, that idea of, like, everything you touch turns to gold, but it's like, everything you touch turns to complexity, like, just… every single project becomes so much more complex, because instead of starting with some, like, top-down theory that I'm trying to argue, it's starting with all the details. So, let's see, take, for example, if someone's assigned an essay of, like. what's… You know, 3 things from the 20th century that you… that, that we've learned about technology in society. I don't know, that's probably a bad essay prompt, but if there was an essay like that, top-down thinkers might be like, okay, here's kind of some three… theories I'll go with, maybe I'll go research those and I'll build my paper. Whereas an autistic person's way more likely to be like, I need to go read 50 articles before I can even come up with a hypothesis. And so, the process of how we come to our our theories just tends to be so much more complex that any homework assignment tends to be more complex for the autistic brain because of how we're going to approach it. It's also why I was like, I don't think I have time to make a presentation, because every time I make a presentation, I make it more complex than it should be, because the, the school of fish. So, it can… that's a different reason why it can get really hard to engage, because we don't know where to start. Strategic Supports for Autistic Motivation Yael Valek, REEL: But you do end up in the end with amazing new ideas and connections that others don't come up with, so… Megan Anna Neff: Yeah, and that's the thing I often say, like, starting a new job or learning a new system, an autistic person's not going to be nearly as productive from this jump, but once they learn that system, they know it so well, and know it so deeply, because they've done the bottom-up thing. Or for me, when I prep a presentation. I can then talk off the cuff about a lot of topics, because I know it so deeply from having done a… overly thorough deep dive. Yael Valek, REEL: Amazing. So I'll give you, the choice if you wanted to go over the two slides that we skipped. Real quick, if you want, and then we can take some questions, or… Megan Anna Neff: Yeah, this is a little bit shorter than the ADHD, so I think, yeah, I'll run through these briefly. So, so these would be some considerations for supporting autistic motivation. I think often it's about increasing access to safety, meaning predictability and regulation. So, one way that we can support energy and regulation is by reducing cognitive overwhelm. Again, thinking about that school of fish. For example, maybe offering one option at a time, or anything we can do to support autonomy. Like, I… we call it kind of autonomy buckets of… we almost rarely, we almost always give our children, like, contained choices, or specifically our PDA autistic child. So supporting autonomy is another way of supporting safety and regulation. And then making sure that demands are paced out with breaks and time for interest and sensory breaks. Another way of creating safety is through increasing predictability. You know, if there's a lot of predictability baked into their rhythms and their environment, they're gonna have more capacity to do things that don't have as much predictability. So as much as we can have predictable routines and rhythms. When they are going to be doing something new, can we create some visual schedules or steps, or, like, can we find it online and show them what it visually looks like? And break it down into steps so they know what to expect when they're doing something new. Can we support the decoding of instructions so we can body double with them and help them break down the instructions? So that a lot of autistic people might spend, you know, 45 minutes just trying to decode instructions before they ask for help. And then… In general, just anything we can do to help make sure expectations are clear and we're reducing pressure. Autistic nervous systems tend to be more hyperarousal, so we want to do anything that kind of helps bring the arousal down by creating predictability and reducing sensory load. And then that connecting to meaning and interest, can we weave in their special interests? So for example, let's say, you're hoping your child moves their body more, gets fresh air. Can you pair going on walks with them with talking about their special interest, or pairing using the treadmill with their special interest show? And then also be, you know, whatever we can do to protect some time for that deep, that deep focus. Being mindful that task switching or just spending time outside of monotropism can be pretty taxing for them. So similar here, I think it's less about, kind of, what trips, like, tricks or hacks we can use to motivate our autistic children, and more about creating environments that allow their natural motivation to thrive by creating, kind of, Meaningful engagement, predictability, safety, support. Gifted Narratives and Uneven Development And I think this is literally the only slide that I actually skipped, which is these were just a couple other gifted thoughts around Kind of normalizing that uneven development so that they don't create character-based narratives around it, like using language of, you know, uneven profiles, or being able to talk about and validate the experience of feeling behind your peers in some ways, and ahead of them in other ways, which is a really confusing experience. supporting their depth and their curiosity. And then another way, which I think also helps with growth mindset, is if there's ways to track their growth. So maybe they're an artist, like, taking a picture of some of their art once a week, and then, like, looking at it together, like, whoa, look at how your art's changed over the year. Because for a lot of gifted people, they can be quite self-critical of themselves, so they might be like, I'm not getting better, but to be able to actually physically visibly see it, like, oh, wow, look, I have… I have grown with this persistence. That can be something we can do. Thank you. Oh, yeah. Yeah, so for gifted people, Environments that create space for Oh my goodness, this matches your talk so well. Curiosity, complexity, I would add that. Yael Valek, REEL: Yeah, you're fine. Megan Anna Neff: and connection that you have. And then that, that validates, that validates their complexity. Yael Valek, REEL: I noticed a pattern of interests being relevant to all of these, and we try to talk about that a lot. Yes. Q&A: Identifying Needs and Managing Burnout Make it interest-based. So, there's a lot of questions, we won't be able to get to them all, and there's a lot of kudos here. I just want you to tell you that, like, half the chat is how much people have enjoyed your books and your podcasts and your support, so… Megan Anna Neff: No, thank you. Yael Valek, REEL: So one of the big questions we're getting, and you touched on this, but, to talk about ADHD, And how to best identify, and does it matter to identify if certain behaviors are due to, autism or ADHD? And someone else posted this, made me laugh a little. My son always complains about being fed the same foods, but is not open to trying anything new. We have the same thing in our house. Megan Anna Neff: Oh, that's so… that's so ADHD, yeah. Yup. I don't know, I mean, they've maybe… maybe that's just a funny anecdote, and maybe they've tried this. One thing, and we have a child with ARFID, so… food, and we call it safe foods and stretch foods. And whenever we introduce anything new, we always… the staple is always a safe food, and then it's, like, a little bit of the stretch food. So… If the child does want to, you know, have experience new, novel foods, that's one way to do it, is, You're not replacing the safe food, it's additive, and it's a little bit… Yael Valek, REEL: But in general, at AudHD, how do you know if it's the ADHD or the autism that's preventing them from doing a task, and does it matter, or how… because it sounds Some of the things are contradictory in what they might need, right? Megan Anna Neff: Yeah, and that can be the kind of push-pull of the Audi HD experience of, like, I need predictability, I need novelty, which again, it's then, it's where do we find that paradoxical space where it's… it's predictable novelty? I think… It might be less important to know, is it the ADHD or is it the autism, and more important to to drill down and say, okay, what's the unmet need here? And it very well might be a complex mix of both. Like, I talk about this experience I had once of where I realized I was both… I was intellectually understimulated, and so I was having that, like, crawl-out-of-your-skin feeling. I was at a school event for my kids. And I was, at the same time, sensory overstimulated. And it was the most excruciating experience of being understimulated and overstimulated at the same time. And when I had that experience, this was a couple years ago, I was like, oh my gosh, this was my whole childhood. The AuDHD "Switchboard" and PDA Like, this was school, this was church, this was a constant feeling of being intellectually understimulated, so under-aroused, but then overstimulated through sensory things. So, even being able to have the language for that has been really helpful for me, and helpful for my children, and then thinking through, okay. How do I reduce stimulus over here? How do I increase stimulus over here? this is… I think, especially for audio HDers, learning our sensory profile can be really helpful, because a lot of the conflict can be, like, okay, maybe if I bump up some stimulus in this profile and bump down here, it's like a switchboard, and we're often, like, bumping up and bumping down, to get us into a… A place that we feel regulated, and where we can focus, and where we can meaningfully engage. Yael Valek, REEL: It's a lot of experimentation. Megan Anna Neff: So much experimentation. So much experimentation, yeah. Yael Valek, REEL: Maybe it changes every day, every hour. Megan Anna Neff: Oh, absolutely. Some days weight feels good, some days it feels terrible. Some days, you know, a child might be sensory-seeking, other days more avoidant. Yael Valek, REEL: And then we had some questions, too, about, PDA. You touched on that before how does PDA play into this motivation, and… Megan Anna Neff: Yeah, so PDA, and if that's a new term for folks, it has historically stood for pathological demand avoidance, the more affirming term, pervasive drive for autonomy, and it's where the nervous system perceives a loss of autonomy as an incredible threat, and demands, everyday demands, like, get your shoes on, grab water, can activate that fight-or-flight response. So this… kind of has its whole… its own… its own whole school of, like, how do we… you know, how do we reduce demands? How do we… Communicate in a way that doesn't invoke that fight-flight response. And there's some really good resources out there. There's the PDA Society, there's PDA Northwest, there's someone named Amanda Dyckman who has a low-demand parenting, book and framework. There's also some really good thinkers who are talking about PDA and intersectionality, like, so a lot of the… historically, we've talked about how do we lower demands when our children are PDA, but that, is not always… accessible or safe for Black and Brown children, and so there's also an element of how do we create distress tolerance for demands? So, it's… it's complex. I'm not sure how much into PDA you want me to go, but… I did just see in the chat differentiated PDA from ODD. I actually have a whole article… er, I have a… I'm not sure how… I have an article on ODD, but ODD is Oppositional Defiant Disorder. And that… all of that disorder does is it… you can get it if you have the behaviors. It doesn't explain the behaviors. It's a diagnosis I wish didn't exist. It's, I think, a really unhelpful diagnosis in the sense of all you're doing is explaining behavior, so a lot of PDA kids will meet criteria for ODD, but the root cause is not understood when that diagnosis is given. Pda is not yet diagnosed in the States, it is in the UK, but more and more people are becoming aware of it. Disclosing Diagnosis and Preventing Shame So, yeah. Yael Valek, REEL: Thank you. Okay. In your view, what is the right age to start talking to your kids about how their brain is different? How do you work with them to prevent feeling shame that there is something wrong with their brain? And that also ties in really well with another question that Teresa and I had brainstormed, which is, you know, especially, we live in Silicon Valley, everything here is about this legacy of achievement and drive, so there was definitely this feeling of, I'm lazy and I'm not achieving. Megan Anna Neff: I mean, it's tricky in that, like, you're probably starting to think about how to introduce it, maybe after a child's been diagnosed. Ideally, like. I'm not sure how this comparison, will do in this community. But, as comparison, when my kids were babies, I just always talked to them as adults, and I remember, like, changing my daughter's diaper and being like, you can date a boy, you can date a girl. Like, I never parented her in a way that assumed Heteronormativity. And I'm really… and… and I'm really glad I did, because that is very relevant for my family. And it just… I, I guess… most of us can't go backwards in time. I didn't know about neurodiversity when my kids were young, but I think ideally, like. it would just be baked in from the start of, like, all brains are different. Or… So, I think we can normalize it… in the same way that we might choose to normalize, like, gender expansiveness or sexual expansiveness, where we're not defaulting to the assumptions that society gives us. I… I… parents are often… it can feel uncomfortable, it can feel like I need to, like, disclose this to my children, but it can be a gradual conversation around, like. brains are different. Donna Henderson had… she wrote an article that's up on my website that I can find the link for, but it's about how to disclose diagnosis to your children, and also about the benefits of it, because I think it can feel scary, but there are a lot of benefits of disclosing it to our children, but again, it can be really gradual. It doesn't have to, like, be a sit-down, and I'm going to tell you that you have this diagnosis. Because our kids will be making narratives about themselves. If they don't have access to that knowledge, but it'll often be more shame-based narratives, like I'm lazy, or I'm… or I'm awkward, versus, I'm autistic, or I'm ADHD. Yael Valek, REEL: Yeah, definitely the case. Dyslexia, Understimulation, and Burnout So, I don't know if this is in your area. Somebody brought up dyslexia, and I don't know if this is in your area of, you know, research or not, but someone said, what about these topics as they relate to dyslexia? Are the experiences and approaches more like ADHD or autism, or completely different? Megan Anna Neff: I mean, I think there's similarities in that going to what's the unmet need, where's the block, what are the accommodations and the supports, that… so… So I think there'd be a similar approach around identifying the unmet need and the access point, and reducing shame, like… being called upon to read, right? And how scary that is when the child has dyslexia. Or even, like, how text-based is an activity. And there can be so many assumptions. and the ways things are built that aren't accessible for dyslexic people. So, a lot of it's similar around finding the barriers and then… and thinking through accommodations. Yael Valek, REEL: Love that. And then someone said, how do you help kids who are young and don't fully yet have the awareness, help them distinguish between over and under stimulation? And I may then tie that into burnout, and how do you… Megan Anna Neff: Hmm. Yael Valek, REEL: know when you're experiencing burnout, how does that tie into motivation? But I'm making a big question, so… Megan Anna Neff: Yeah, I mean, sometimes it's also… it's about kind of guessing, like, I remember… walking into my child's room a couple years ago, and it just seemed kind of sad, and they were like, I don't know why I'm sad, maybe I'm bored. And I kind of looked at him, and I was like, are you understimulated? And, like, his eyes just lit up, and he's like, oh my gosh, yes, that's what it is. And so. we won't necessarily know, and our kids won't necessarily know, but sometimes we can make educated guesses, and when we do that, we're helping them develop language, too. Understimulation, you know, if they are, like. Fidgeting, or rustly, or bored, or slow, or… Or, like, foggy, or… getting into fights with their siblings, like, those are all tells that they're probably looking for more stimulation. So it is the kind of slow, steady work of building language with our kids, and then just having so much curiosity about what their experience is, and exploring that together. Yael Valek, REEL: And then, I'd love to also just touch on, burnout, since that was in the title of our talk, and I… I forgot to mention it, but is, how do you… how does burnout tie into all these… this conversation about motivation? Megan Anna Neff: Yeah, I mean, and that's really where it's an energy issue, right? It's not a motivation issue, it's a… person is completely depleted, and we're seeing more burnout in kids, and I would think in Silicon Valley, there'd probably be a lot of that. Puberty is a time that can also trigger burnout. I think just how much the body's going through hormonally. It's so much, and it's also the time where then kids are often expected to do more, like, more extracurriculars. And I think the more we can release, The Myth of Independence and Procrastination You know, the expectation that our kids are gonna have this. very linear developmental trajectory. We were talking about this before we kind of all got on this myth of independence and this kind of hyper-independence we live in. there… you know, our kids might need deeper breaks. They might… school might not work for all of our kids, like, it's just… and then… It's really messy as parents to try to figure out How to get our kids the education and the… kind of the learning that they deserve, and to protect their nervous systems. It's just… it's just really hard. Yael Valek, REEL: That's really hard. So, I'm gonna end us on the last question. There are tons of questions left, but I want to be respectful of your time. So someone asked, so how can you tell if your ADHD kid is truly procrastinating, or if they're lazy? So, does laziness exist? Megan Anna Neff: Yeah, I mean, I… Dr. Devon's Price book, I'm not sure if it was the… oh, because… Yael Valek, REEL: Oh, they also… Megan Anna Neff: I also have a book about laziness Doesn't Exist, which, it's been a… I wonder… I haven't actually read it yet, but, I mean, yeah, I think… I mean, ADHD, we do procrastinate, and we procrastinate until the urgency kicks in, and then we get stressed out. So, procrastination is a real thing, and it's… it's then also, like, especially if that procrastination pattern's causing the child a lot of stress, you know, do they have interest in trying a few things to see if they can make their life a little bit less stressful, so that they don't have to wait for that urgency to kick in before they're able to get mobilized. But yeah, we definitely do procrastinate as ADHDers. Because we're waiting for the dopamine to kick in. Conclusion Yael Valek, REEL: Well, thank you so much. I mean, I learned a ton and took a bunch of notes to try with my kiddos, my two Audi HDers. I especially loved, and I'm not going to try to pronounce it either, but the word from New Zealand. And I love the neurodiversity-affirming way that you look at these, as… you know. ways to find the skills that are missing, rather than assuming a negative intent. Thank you so much for bringing that to us. And for everything, and I hope everyone saw, that Dr. Neff, gave us not only resources for tonight that you can, just get from our website, there's a feedback form, in the chat. But also a lot of discounts on, all kinds of workbooks on her website, and she created a bundle just for real, so we're so appreciative of everything. So thank you so much for sharing your wisdom tonight. Megan Anna Neff: Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me, and thank you for… for accommodating me in… in how we approach this. It's a great example of, kind of. how we can be neuroaffirming. So, yeah, thank you so much for having me. Yael Valek, REEL: Thank you so much. I'll stop the recording.