Neurodiversity and College: Tips for Effectively Supporting Uniquely Wired Learners
- REEL Admin
- Jul 24
- 33 min read
See the transcript here:
Callie Turk:
Welcome to our conversation today about neurodiversity in college and tips for effectively supporting uniquely wired students and learners. My name is Callie Turk. I'm the co-founder and board chair of a nonprofit organization, REEL. I'm so excited to be joined today by colleagues from Landmark College Success Center and Landmark College, who will be talking to you about this important topic.
We'll be sharing Sandra's perspective as the leader of the Success Center about helping kids be ready for college and just a lot of great background information on neurodivergent learners. Then, I'll be sharing the parent perspective. Daniel and Talia will be here to share the student perspective and also here to answer questions along the way.
What we're going to do is go through just this little welcome here, and I will tell you a little bit about how this came to be. Then, we will have Sandra talk about traversing the college search. I'll do the parent perspective. Then, we'll have the student perspective, then open Q&A. Please just put your questions in the chat. We'll be monitoring that as we go through, probably saving most of the questions till the end, unless it's something we really need to address urgently right away.
We do have some pre-submitted questions that were really great, so appreciate everyone for the thought you put into this. Just to give you a little background about who REEL is and why we wanted to host this session with our friends from Landmark Success Center: We are a Silicon Valley-based nonprofit. We really support families and educators of both neurodivergent and twice-exceptional learners and help them thrive in school by raising both their family's awareness and their educators' awareness of how to work with them, using research-based strategies and programming.
For educators, we're providing resources, workshops, and all kinds of programs so that twice-exceptional learners and neurodivergent learners can be successful. With families, we are providing support groups and organizing and disseminating events and tools to help parents really help their kids. This whole session came out of an educator engagement that we had with a school in San Francisco that was really putting a year-long emphasis on doing a better job of supporting their neurodivergent learners.
When we were talking to them about the kind of work we could do, they were mentioning that their college counselor, in particular, had been looking for resources to do a better job supporting neurodiversity but wasn't really having a lot of luck finding what they were looking for. I thought, "Well, we could do something about that." So, if we can do something about that, let's do something about that. Let's get some more information out to college counselors in Silicon Valley so that they can be supporting their neurodivergent students in this process.
I couldn't think of anyone better to partner with on that than Sandra from The Landmark Success Center. She'll be talking more about what they do, but they are really working all the time with kids who are on this journey and their families. They're seeing it from that perspective, as well as being part of a college that supports students who are neurodivergent. She just has such an immense set of wisdom to share about this process. I reached out and said, "Let's do it," and she said, "Yes, let's," and so here we are today.
Some of you may be wondering—I keep using this term twice-exceptional, and you may not be familiar with that term. We like to use anytime we have a chance to talk to educators just to expand awareness of twice-exceptionality. Sandra is going to talk a lot about what neurodiversity means. Within neurodiversity, there's a profile of a learner that has both distinguishing strengths and complex challenges.
They may have been identified as being dyslexic or having ADHD or being autistic. They may not have been identified as those things yet. Very often, they are misidentified or not identified because they may also have some distinguishing strengths—some high ability or potential in one or more areas. They may know everything about World War II, be able to write amazing poetry. They may be ahead grade level in reading, but they can't write anything. So, they're very complicated students because everyone is expecting them to be able to do a lot more academically than they may actually be able to perform.
Sometimes, those distinguishing strengths and complex challenges mask each other, and they combine and interact in very different ways, making them very unique learners and often some of our most confusing, perplexing kids. But many of them would like to go to college and have opportunities to pursue education in their areas of interest. We want to make sure that nothing holds them back. So, we don't want any neurodivergent student to ever be held back from what they want to do in their lives.
We like to just make sure people know that there are these twice-exceptional kids out there who may not have been identified yet as having a learning difference or may have been identified as having a learning difference but haven't been seen for their full strengths. That's sort of what we mean by twice-exceptional. I've already explained to you why this session, and I'm going to hand it over to our friend Sandra from The Landmark Success Center, who is going to give us an overview of neurodivergence.
Sandra Fishler:
Thanks so much, Callie. It's really a pleasure to be here today, collaborating, of course, with the REAL 2E team and Landmark College Success Center. I'm going to go ahead and share my screen now. I do have some thoughts to share with you today. All right. I think Callie mentioned this before, but once again, we're here today to discuss traversing the college search—what might that look like? Again, it's a pleasure to be here today with Callie and the other participants from Landmark College. These are current students who are going to share their journey with us.
My name again is Sandra Fishler. I'm the Landmark College Success Center Director. I'll tell you a little about Landmark College for some of you who may not know. For some of you, it might already be review, but Landmark College has been around about 40 years, educating students who are neurodivergent and doing it quite well. We are in our 40th year this year and celebrating an anniversary. About four and a half years ago, they decided they wanted to have some representation here on the West Coast post. So, The Landmark College Success Center was born out of that concept.
We have a team of learning specialists who provide executive function coaching, academic support, college-level reading and writing skills, transition skill-building, skills to and through college, as well as social pragmatics workshops through the PEERS Concepts and curriculum. PEERS standing for the Program for the Education and Enrichment of Relational Skills. Here's my contact information if anybody needs to reach me—please feel free to contact me. As Callie mentioned, you'll get a copy of this presentation.
We'll start off with a quote from Albert Einstein. He shares that, "Everybody is a genius, but if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid." My guess is that you probably have a couple students feeling a lot like a fish trying to climb a tree when they think about entering this college search process.
Let's go over a couple terms first. The first being neurotypical. This is what society may consider neurotypical—as being the typical brain development with cognitive and intellectual functioning associated with thinking, behaving, and processing information. Neurodivergent is what society may consider atypical brain development, cognitive functioning—an individual diagnosed with dyslexia or dyscalculia or ADHD or those 2E individuals that Callie was mentioning earlier.
What is neurodiversity? Neurodiversity is all of us. All brains function differently. This diversity, of course, is natural and beneficial to us as the human species. These differences should be accepted and viewed not as something that needs to be fixed but rather something embraced. Changing the conversation to help our students recognize and acknowledge those strengths is the beginning of the process to heading off to college.
Let's put this into context. What are the prevalence of students with learning differences? You all work with students of all different abilities, so you probably know this quite well. One in five students have a learning difference, as reported by the National Center for Learning Disabilities. One in 15 have an IEP. One in 42 have a 504, but we all know that there are still millions that are undiagnosed.
Let's talk about graduation rates. Graduation rates for the neurodivergent college students remain lower than the neurotypical students. There's about 49% of students with disabilities—again, those I described earlier with diagnoses such as autism, ADHD, 2E students as well—49% are completing their college programs. This is in contrast to what has been reported by Best Colleges as the general graduation rate at a four-year university or institution at 62%.
What might be some of the barriers to that persistence? I'm sure many of you are already thinking—you have some in mind. There might be limited access to supportive resources—that could be one something holding a student back, possibly. Faculty and staff work so hard, and we want to recognize them, but it could be that maybe they don't have sufficient training in working with the neurodivergent student. There might also be some reluctance from students to disclose their neurodivergent status—maybe fear of stigmatization or just lack of awareness of what they may need should they disclose.
The path begins with self-knowledge. As an education professional, these are ways that you can help. First, helping your young student find that self-awareness related to their strengths and identifying those areas of challenge and understanding their identities and their diagnosis. Fostering recognition of supports that might be available at the college that they're planning on going to or planning to apply to. Maybe they're entering a gap year program—recognizing supports there or even just the work environment and what might be recognized there.
Encouraging participation in programs to help students better understand their LD and articulate what it means and learn the strategies to support it. Lastly, helping your young students strengthen their ability to articulate their LDs to others. Maybe even offering an opportunity for them to role-play with you to help build their confidence in expressing and articulating. They may want to consider disclosing.
As they build that confidence in articulating, some things to consider: Unlike high school, a college will not know about a student's LD unless specifically told by the student. According to the National Special Education Advocacy Institute, undergraduates who wait until after their first year in college to request accommodations were three and a half times more likely not to graduate within six years. Imagine additional cost associated and just diligence and determination needed from the students.
Also, considering that students don't outgrow their disabilities. Maybe many of you educators know this already, but oftentimes, students think, "Well, that's how I was in elementary school and high school—I don't have that anymore headed off to college." Again, you don't outgrow your disability; you learn how best to work with your strengths and addressing your challenges.
Let's look at some of the legal drivers and compare what may be driving the secondary education experience and what might be driving the postsecondary education experience. The secondary education experience—IDEA, or the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act, is the driver. Success and reaching targets are paramount to the IDEA Act. Schools take the lead—they identify and provide intensive supports. Parents are encouraged and are often the advocate for their young student. Often, teachers and staff are all aware of a student's disability status.
That, in comparison to the post-secondary educational experience, or college: What takes over there with the driver is the Americans with Disabilities Act, or ADA. Access is guaranteed, but success is not. That's an interesting distinction to make. Students assume the primary responsibility for their education and must self-advocate. Only instructors a student notifies will be aware of their status. The IEP and 504 plans have no legal weight. The Section 504 of Rehabilitation Act 1973 prevents discrimination, but again, the 504 plan doesn't have any legal weight in the post-secondary environment. No institutional accountability or monitoring is there.
When looking again at these two, comparing them both—the legal drivers: IDEA in the secondary educational environment, success is the target, and most schools are aware of the student needs. In the postsecondary educational experience, ADA is the driver—access is guaranteed but not success, and the students have to lead the disclosure and must be an advocate for themselves.
In looking at potential schools or identifying your students' needs and the school that might best suit those needs, let's look at a few options. The first one is a school that would be ADA-compliant. This is a school that meets the ADA requirements. There may not be any additional cost associated. There would be a small number of staff devoted to the neurodivergent student who has disclosed. There might be academic centers for writing, possibly math. There might even be a reading center. It's peer-based tutoring for the intro courses, and likely, once again, the student must advocate for services. Who does a fantastic job in this arena is the community colleges that we have around us—and we have some amazing ones in the area.
Then, there are those that might be ADA-compliant plus. These are colleges, universities, institutions that go beyond ADA requirements. They may still not have a cost involved. There might be a slightly better student-to-staff ratio. Likely, there are peer-based, possibly professional academic coaching that would be offered. Once again, the student must advocate for the services. Some examples of these, even locally in the area, are the LINK Program at Cal State East Bay and the Wayfinders Program at Cal State Fresno.
Then, we move on to a little bit more of a structured program, and these are IND programs that are offered, offering individualized services. Maybe they are fee-based. They tend to be more comprehensive with academic tutoring and skill-building support. There is likely a full-time, specialized staff. The programs generally ensure services with not as much student advocacy required. There's some fantastic private colleges that do this in the area. St. Mary’s College has their Connect Program, and there's the SALT Program at Arizona State University, or ASU.
Then, there are a couple of LD colleges to consider. The first important item that they might have is full-time support staff. A comprehensive academic, social, pragmatic, and executive function support program. Likely, there are no additional fees—it would be all rolled into the cost. An example of this, of course, is Landmark College, as I described it earlier, but there's another one as well. Landmark College is a beautiful, bucolic environment in Vermont—Putney, Vermont, in fact. There's another one, Beacon College, which is located in Florida, and they have a little more of an urban experience, whereas Landmark College has research alongside the education.
If your student decides they do want to disclose to the disability services office at the school they are considering, let's look at what those offices might be called because it can be a bit confusing, but they all generally address the same thing. Here—"What's in a name?" I think that was said by William Shakespeare—but oftentimes, it's called a Disability Support Services office or an Accessibility Resources office. I've got lots of other names here for you to choose from—whatever might work for any particular school.
To make it a lot easier on your student, you can search the school's website and type in "disability," and you'll find out the name of that particular school's Disability Services office. Aside from deciding to disclose to the disability services office, other supports on campus should be considered in the student's application process as well. Looking at whether or not the school has tutoring services or study skill workshops. Maybe some sort of academic coaching, such as maybe a Writing Center or even some reading supports.
Do they offer assistive technology? That can be very helpful to a neurodivergent student having difficulty either reading—maybe they need some sort of text-to-speech assistive technology. So, looking at possibly having some assistive technology as part of the school. Maybe some mentorship programs or honor societies that might be important to the student. Of course, looking at support groups such as counselors and advisors. Not forgetting about social programming and clubs—maybe sports associated.
Then, looking to the orientation services to identify and share where to find all of these different departments on campus. Then, the last one there is the dining services. Oftentimes, this is overlooked because students don't consider this as a support, but if somebody does have dietary needs, the dining hall can provide support there oftentimes.
Let's switch gears a minute. A very famous neurodivergent author, inventor, and advocate is Temple Grandin. She shares that, "The world needs all kinds of minds." Important to note: Oftentimes, the neurodivergent student has some executive function challenges—not all, but many. To that end, considering executive function support is something every student should consider—those that are challenged with executive function, I'll say, should consider.
Executive function is the management system for the brain. Zelazo, Blair, and Willoughby offer that it can be defined as an attention-regulation skill needed for conscious, goal-directed problem-solving. So, you need to be able to identify your goal and problem-solve to reach that goal—executive function. If someone's having difficulty in executive function, what might that look like?
If someone is challenged, it might be an individual having trouble managing their time or starting or completing projects and tasks. I'm sure you've come across many neurodivergent students who have completed their homework, and it sits in their backpack—they haven't turned it in. That's an important task to work on. Maybe having difficulty prioritizing those tasks—what's more important than others. Following directions, maybe having difficulty with the rules and routines. Maybe difficulty organizing tasks or thoughts or even having trouble planning for those long-term projects.
We had a recent client of ours at the Success Center who was in college for visual arts, and she was really challenged with studying her notes from her classes—from the classes with lectures. What the learning specialist did was help her to pull those concepts together and map them out visually so she could learn the tasks that way. Again, that's something with planning—you can scaffold the tasks needed to reach that long-term project.
I identified supports that you'll find on campuses, but oftentimes, families consider a team outside of the school as supports. Executive function coaches can be a good place to start. Again, the Success Center does that, but there's many others out there that do a great job. Something for a young student to consider—maybe they're looking at a life coach who can help them identify goals and reaching those goals. There's also independent living trainers out there for that college student that isn't quite ready to manage all of their independent living skills. There are trainers out there that can provide that support. Even peer mentors can be a guide on campus for that young person as they consider transitioning onto whatever school they decide to attend. Then, of course, incorporating therapists as needed.
We at the Success Center work in concert with any number of these individuals to support our clients. We encourage that any support that is found is done from a strength-based model. Strength-based models are ones that emphasize the positive aspects of the student's effort and achievement, as well as what their strengths are. I mentioned a moment ago the project that was mapped out—or, excuse me, the lecture that was mapped out in the form of visual aids for an individual. That's a way of building upon an individual's strengths and addressing their challenges.
More specifically, strength-based is taking what a student possesses as a strength, leaning into that, and then addressing challenges from there. Lopez and Lewis offered this description. How best can you, as an education professional, help prepare your students as they consider putting together a roster of schools and trying to figure out what might work best for them to ensure a successful transition?
One of the first things is: How can you help your students articulate their needs and identify those colleges and transition programs to apply to which more closely matches their needs? What might be some open-ended questions that you could ask your students so they may better prepare their list of possible schools? This is just one sentence stem here: "Tell me about what kind of environment you like to be in. Is it a large environment like a city, or do you prefer something outdoors?" That's just one example.
Consider helping with their homework submission, their paperwork submission to the disability services office. Remind them that they are the expert on them. Helping them to understand that they have to advocate for themselves—they are the expert. Then, as they look to develop that list of schools, what might be on that list addressing their student learning needs? That's one of the items that should be on their list. Identifying what environment, again, is—and many of these you're already doing with your students; these are just in addition to if you're not doing this already.
What kind of degrees are offered, and what might be desired? What kinds of support centers are on that campus? That is really an important factor when you consider the student's learning needs. What clubs could be related to their major or their interests? Again, building their transition to be positive so they can find people—like people with their interests. Then, of course, considering their social interaction—what kind of groups might be there that have some common interests? Again, preparation and consideration, of course, makes for a better first-year transition.
I mentioned a moment ago about providing open-ended questions, which I know many of you do this already. What you'll find on the screen here—and again, you will get a copy of this presentation—these are some sample questions that you could use. For instance, if you wanted to inquire about what sort of support services one of your students was interested in identifying, you could ask something such as, "What types of academic support services are you looking for?" Maybe in terms of transition support: "What type of transition support do you think you will need as you move from high school to college?" You'll get a copy of these, and you might find these helpful and add them to your arsenal of questions you likely are already asking your young students.
I want to thank you all for being here. Thank you, of course, to the participants. My name is listed once again here along with my contact information, and I will turn it over to Callie.
We can't hear you, Callie.
Callie Turk:
Thank you. Thank you. You think after all these years we'd be better at that, but thank you. Always learn something new when I listen to you go through information. On that note about having access to the slides, I want to make sure—while I'm introducing myself a little more here—that everyone out there knows you can actually access a Padlet that I put together that has direct links to the slides today, as well as some of the resources that we're covering.
While I'm introducing myself briefly in terms of being a parent and giving you the parent perspective, feel free to use the QR code or directly enter that Padlet information if you'd like to access that. We will also include it in the follow-up email for today's presentation so that you can find everything really quickly and easily that you need.
I'm just going to take a few minutes to share the parent perspective. I think you'll hear a lot of common themes from what Sandra said, but I really want to get to our students and let them have a chance to share their voices. I'm going to go pretty swiftly through my slides, but know that I am happy to talk to anyone in more detail about these if you'd like. I didn't make like really pretty slides—I just wanted to make sure I covered all the key points quickly and swiftly and that you would know that these points exist on these slides.
In addition to co-founding REAL, I am the parent of three young adults, one of whom is an autistic first-year student in college. We just recently went through the college application process, and I wanted just to share some of the insights. Sandra, can you confirm that you hear me smoothly because my video looks a little herky-jerky? Okay, good. Thank you.
I just wanted to say a little bit about how we helped create the college list for our daughter. We talked about her interests a lot—so, sort of to the point that Sandra was making about being strength-based, it's also really important, especially with our neurodivergent kids who tend to have stronger interests that are really driving their passions, to really lean into those. That really helped guide a lot of the criteria that we were looking for in schools.
We also spent time reflecting on her past experiences and programs she had been to, so that really helped her think about what kind of environment she wanted, what was going to work for her or not work for her. We also met with a private college counselor just a couple of times who had a really deep knowledge of these kinds of programs and accessible education at colleges. That really helped because she really knows those college programs really well. You can sit with her for just an hour or two and talk about what your interest and needs are, and she really was able to sort of narrow down a really good list for us so that we weren't trying to search 2,000 colleges but really more like 20 to 30 colleges.
We talked a lot about the criteria that would be important to her. Some of the things that Sandra mentioned—which, I mean, my twice-exceptional daughter who I'm talking about now, she's a twin, so we were doing the same kinds of things with her other sister, who is not neurodivergent, but it was just a really different—it had a different tone to it because her neurotypical sister was able to process a lot of this on her own. She was able to pick up a lot of information just by looking at websites and things, but also, she was just a little more flexible about what she wanted.
Whereas, we knew our autistic daughter was going to have more specific interests and needs, so the size of school, the weather—like, she just all said, "I do not want to be somewhere sunny; I don't want to be anywhere sunny," because she doesn't do well with a lot of bright light. Those kinds of considerations were really important, and for her, really important that the school had a feeling of a "warm hug"—like a place where she was going to be really taken, you know, really looked out for and cared for.
The college tours were hard but really essential. My daughter isn't one who likes to be on a plane and go a lot of places, but she really learned a lot. The first couple of tours, she was very closed off; she wouldn't want to ask questions, but she was gaining a lot of information we reflected on later. By the third or fourth tour, she knew more what was happening, and she was much more engaged—just a lot of research.
I think it's a tendency for college counselors in high school to start trying to have put more on the students because they are going to have to go and self-advocate and be independent. But there is still really a strong role for parents to play in this process, potentially, depending on the child and their temperament and their energy level. So, some parents may be doing a little more of that research than is typical, but that's like a real partnership between them and their child based on what that child is kind of managing—being a senior and taking harder classes and thinking about college.
Just a little more flexibility there—that that parent may be doing a little more of that kind of background legwork than other kids' parents may be doing. What really helped us the most was our school counselor. I know a lot of you are school counselors, and I cannot emphasize how important your role is. Our daughter really trusted her school counselor, and that made it so much easier for them to work together.
A lot of neurodivergent kids haven't had great experiences working with adults in school environments all the time, especially by the time they've gotten to high school. Any adult that they can really build trust with is someone they're going to really value and open up to. To be that trusting adult in their life, I think, was just hugely valuable.
Again, that external college counselor who really helped us with the list. Our school actually offered a one-week summer course on essay writing. It was part of their like normal offerings of summer, and that made a huge difference because these kids were working on the essays with teachers they trusted and with the college counselor they already knew. It really got her so far ahead so that once school started, she really had that personal statement pretty much done.
All the websites that colleges offer on accessible education—kind of to Sandra's point—do those web searches and make sure kids are really looking at what's offered. Then, doing an interest-based summer college campus program. We did one—she did one between her junior and senior years where she got to go onto a campus and live there for a week or two and really do an interest-based activity but also experience: What's a dorm like? How do I get food in the cafeteria?
A lot of neurodivergent kids have food sensitivities, and so just for her to gain that confidence that she could do that and navigate all that was huge. My top tips for success: Really get the testing accommodations early. That's a process—both the ACT and SAT will offer those accommodations, but you've got to ask for them in enough time. But also, don't stress that much about the test.
I think, you know, some neurodivergent kids—yes, are going to go to top-tier schools, and they need to focus on those test scores, and some are not, and it's okay. Like, they don't have to have the perfectly manicured package for all the schools they may apply to and be interested in those places that may be the "warm hug" for that child. So, yes, make sure that we don't put—we don't have the kid not be able to do the test, but also, maybe don't stress about them as much.
Really, really find a way to gather the student's input on the schools that are working for them. This may be non-traditional—so, like for my daughter, I created a Google Form. I don't know if it's going to open it up for me or not, but I think I put it in the Padlet. For my daughter, like having a Discord chat actually worked really well—that's how she liked to communicate about this, so I set up a Discord identity, and that's how we communicated.
Some kids might want to do voice notes and not carry a journal. My neurotypical girl had a journal, and she wrote everything down—that is not going to work for everybody. So, really aligning to what works for that child and how they like to communicate is really important. To be patient and be flexible. There are going to be moments where whatever you're trying just isn't working, and there's just—we reach these breaking points, and really use that collaborative problem-solving—talk to the child, figure out what would work better.
Again, just ground as much as you can in the child's interests and their goals, and that should drive the process. Common myths we ran into along the way that I want to dispel if possible: There are loads of schools out there, and they don't require the most rigorous course load. I feel like in Silicon Valley, there's this tendency to put a lot of pressure on kids to have the most rigorous course load, the most pristine record, to have everything lined up, and that is just a myth.
You can lean into interest in your course selection. This really reinforces that story of who the child is, and we found schools really were much more interested in that than whether that child had taken the most selective course load. Most schools want these kids to be themselves. Most colleges we found really do want to help students, and they're really open about accommodations.
We heard a lot of people say, "Well, you won't get those accommodations in college," or "You won't—no one will do this X, Y, or Z for you," and it's actually, like, not true. We found colleges were actually willing to have those conversations a lot more, even if you have to self-advocate with your professors. If that college isn't, then it just may not be the right college for your student. I think you have to, as a parent, acknowledge that.
Students really don't have to spend the first two years taking general courses that they're not that interested in. You can go to colleges that let you start taking classes in your interest area right away. I think that's really important for these kids to know because sometimes school has been a real drag for a long time, and we can really get them excited about college when they realize they can take classes that are super interesting and they really do.
Many colleges want to support neurodivergent students, but I would say just a lesson learned on our part is: Unless you're going, I think, to like a Landmark or a Beacon, they're going to focus more on academic support than social support. Even when they have a program maybe specifically for autistic kids, we found a lot of times it's not doing the social skills support as much as kids might benefit from.
That is my fire hose of what you might want to know from a parent's point of view because I really want to make sure we have plenty of time to listen to the students. I should also say, if you have any questions while we transition over to our time with the students, please put them in the chat. We will address some of the questions we can here today; we also will collect those and address what we can't in the follow-up email.
I'm just so excited to introduce you today to Daniel and Talia, who are students at Landmark College. We have a few questions we're going to ask them to answer, and then open it up for you guys to ask any of us any questions, but first, I'm going to start with Daniel and just ask you to tell us a little bit about yourself and what your college journey was like.
Daniel Cabaniss:
Sure. Hi, everybody. My name is Daniel Cabaniss, and I am a senior at Landmark College. I am also a campus ambassador, as is Talia. My experience—first of all, in the case of self-disclosing—I have ADHD, and I also have a visual processing disorder. I'm a student who was diagnosed relatively late. I was diagnosed at 14 or 15, and I was really in denial about my need for accommodations and my need for a school that was in any way different from that of my peers.
I thought that I could basically just power through college the same way I was sort of powering through high school. That ended up, of course, not being correct, but that was that was my my thought process coming in. My experience with the college application process itself was really one of going to the guidance counselor at my high school.
First of all, the high school counselor being very interested in school ranking and giving me colleges based on school ranking—which, you know, that is definitely a way to tell how good a college is in certain aspects, but it wasn't extremely helpful for me. Then also being told, "Oh, here—here are a few things you as a student are not so great at multitasking; here's a school where they take one class at a time," which is Colorado College—the my first school that I ended up going to.
Basically, sort of being railroaded a little bit into that direction without considering some of the other things that were most important to me. If I could go back and ask myself questions—put being put into that college counselor role—I would ask myself the question, "What is the class that you appreciate the most, that you feel the most safe in, you feel like you learn the best in, and what are the things that make that class that way?"
Sort of helping to elucidate sort of the real—the real reasons, the real things that make me feel held and put me in an advantageous position to learn.
Callie Turk:
I think that's a pretty succinct way of starting off. That's awesome. Thank you so much. Talia, would you mind answering that same question?
Talia Katz:
Yes. Well, Daniel did so great that it's hard to top that, but I'm Talia. I'm a junior at Landmark. I have ADHD as well and anxiety. I was diagnosed when I was 19, so after I had already begun college. I was also at a fairly competitive school—I'm from Long Island, and we're not as bad as California, but we come close to you guys—no offense.
The college application process was brought up like the first day of high school. I was one of those students who would just power through. I signed myself up for everything, and I did as much work as I could, but there's there was always things dropping off. I kind of had the mindset that that would stop in college. Unfortunately, the way we did it—because of the competitive school, the goal was like to go to the hardest school you could get into.
So, I went to my guidance counselor, but I also had a like a separate college counselor, and we visited all the schools. I determined that the hardest school I could go to was the University of Chicago, so I early decision there. The only good thing about that was that I didn't have to write a million essays because if I had to sit at that kitchen table with my parents for much longer, I don't know if any of us would have made it. That was a rough experience.
I went there, and it wasn't the right fit for me. So, I would say my my biggest thing is: Don't go to the hardest school you can get into. The idea of a "warm hug" kind of school sounds lovely and is definitely kind of the experience at Landmark now, but there are other schools that you can get that at. To find that, you might want to visit schools in the winter and kind of see what the atmosphere of the "warm hug" is because Chicago is very cold; Vermont is also cold—less cold. That's important.
Callie Turk:
Yes, I have a daughter in Minnesota, and in the 40s there today, and it's balmy, so I hear what you say—that is how we feel. Daniel, we had talked about maybe you just sharing a little bit about like what questions you wish your college counselor had asked you in the process.
Daniel Cabaniss:
Yeah, absolutely. I mentioned earlier about talking about what makes you feel like you're in sort of the best place for you in your academic life. I think that's a really important question to ask—just the simple like, "Who's your favorite teacher? What was your favorite class? Why?" Getting myself—or getting a student—to really understand and grok, like, not just that the class was great but break it up in individual pieces and figure out the the, "Oh, yes, this thing in particular—the small class sizes was why," or "The teacher had a lot of one-on-one time with me, and that's why," or something like that.
I think another thing that is really important is—I really wish I was asked more about what my interests were and sort of, "What are the things that, when I am struggling with executive function skills or things of that nature, what are the things that are in my mind that keep me going?" For me, that's chorus and a cappella. I held on at my first school for two and a half—almost three years—despite all of my challenges and never going to get academic support even though I really should have because I was running an a cappella group and knew that people really relied on me.
I knew that if I failed out, then I was going to have to explain to a bunch of people—like, all my friends—why I couldn't run this thing anymore. Really sticking with, "What are those things that you are so passionate about that they will sort of propel you through your college experience?" I think those are really important. I think that those can be sort of a starting point for figuring out what college is right for your students.
Callie Turk:
I love that, too, because like there's a lot of research that shows, too, when people who maybe have executive function challenges are doing things in their area of interest or passion, they actually are practicing more of those executive function skills and making more social connections. I love that idea of that accountability to other people that's like baked into to what you're doing—that's awesome. Now, I want to hear you sing, but we won't ask you to do that today.
Talia, how did you evaluate Landmark and other schools? And so, what's some of the important information to look for when you're evaluating, and what do you wish you looked for—because it's so overwhelming?
Talia Katz:
Definitely it's very overwhelming, and though, so there are things you can find on like college websites that you might not think you'd be able to find. Like how supportive is the academic support center? And for that you're going to want to look at like how many people are working there. Are they all peer tutors? What's their experience like? Do they have experience working with neurodivergent students, or were they just former English teachers? Both are great, but that serves a different purpose.
How connected is the academic support to Disability Services?
Disability Services is very understaffed at so many schools. And while it's great—yes, you go as soon as you get there, you get that support—they're not going to, at a lot of places, they're not going to stick with you through your career there. They're going to tell you, "Okay, this is what you're getting. This is how much extra time you get. This is how you'll tell your professors." And that's our whole job.
Some schools have that more connected with academic support. So like some schools will do part of those executive functioning tasks for you, and that's kind of what you like, just because it's such an overwhelming experience to walk into a new place and have all these systems to get to know. The more connected the school has it, the better.
And so you can kind of see like what's linked on their website, whose pictures do they have, can I contact this person? And like you can always call the school and ask to talk to a student.
And then the more you talk to the student, the more you can be like, "So what is that really like? What is that really like?" A good way that I've done that in the past is going to the school itself, if you can travel to the school, and like having lunch in the dining hall, and going up to random students. Can be tough—you can have your mom do it! And students really don't mind. It's kind of nice. They never really—you never really get to talk and tell the real story.
So it's very—it's exciting for everybody.
Yeah, yeah. And to Daniel's point, too—talking about like what you want your life to look like. What are the important things to you? Like what are your values? And if your value is going outside, that is a value. Like, what are things that you don't like living without?
Callie Turk:
Yeah, that's so—that's so great. And I know that, you know, you looked at a school, a couple schools, and that's really helpful. Like you said, like my daughter, like being somewhere where it was not sunny and not having to go outside was a high value. And that's different than a lot of kids.
So I think not assuming, too, everybody wants the same thing is really helpful.
So Daniel, what advice do you have for students with learning differences as they start their college search? So like advice that you have for those students that college counselors can pass along?
Daniel Cabaniss:
Yeah. Don't—don't do what I did. I think really, my advice for students—and I know this can be tough, because there are certain times when things have to start, right? When you know, like getting into junior year and SATs, ACTs, all that sort of stuff. But starting to think about it early, so that there is no rush.
I know that I certainly—I felt rushed in many ways. And so because of that rush, I felt pressured into making a decision and convincing myself that I liked that decision. And that is a—that's sort of a bad cycle to get into.
So thinking about it early, giving yourself plenty of time, and really not getting married to any school. There's no need to have any loyalty to a school that you like. That's something that I sort of, in my second college search, really understood, is—you know, to a certain extent: what can you give me? Right? I'm not just applying, I'm not just sort of submitting to this higher power. It's: I'm a person who has a specific learning style and specific needs. These are things that I want. Do you have them? And are you going to be nice to me about it?
And if not, then bye-bye.
Sort of confirming that self-worth and value. College students—you know, these prospective college students—yeah, we've got value. And sometimes it feels hard to accept that when you're in high school, but this can be sort of part of that.
Callie Turk:
Definitely, definitely. And you know, I haven't gotten any questions yet in from our people who are attending. If anyone wants to put a question in the chat, feel free. But I thought there was a really good one that came in as part of the pre-submitted questions that you all might be great to answer, which is:
Just how do we think about balancing, you know, as a—when we're like, as the parents or the college counselors working with students who are neurodivergent—how do you all suggest we balance empowering students to have control over the process versus helping them with their executive function skills? So I think this is a common tension point, right? Yeah, and I'm not sure any family ever gets it quite right. But as a college counselor, like how could they help kind of create that balance?
Talia Katz:
I can answer that, and then Daniel, if you have anything to add, please.
So basically, just—it’s hard. But don't assume that you'll suddenly be good at things. Like it's nice to imagine that you'll go to sleep one day after procrastinating and in the morning you'll be able to do stuff. And everyone has that experience—neurotypical and neurodiverse. And the same goes for like letting parents help their students.
Like there are weaknesses that we have, and focusing on those is just going to make the whole experience a lot harder. And like it's—so all the like organizing things, the keeping track of deadlines, the adult things—making appointments, stuff like that. As long as you're in communication with your student like, "Hey, I just did this thing. I did this thing. Look, here that thing is." It's like when you're training someone, and so you copy them on all your emails. Pretend like you're training someone new.
And yeah, it is—it's hard as a student still to let my parents help with stuff. But like you make that spreadsheet for them and then you're like, "Oh, why don't you answer this question?" Or like, "Which question would you like to answer for this week?"
A lot of executive functioning is breaking things down. So like, if you can break things down already for them, that's really helpful. Hopefully every student is different. But there's also a lot—a lot of emotional tax that comes with all this. So the less like—and this isn't something me or my parents are ever successful at—but the less we put our emotions on each other, the better we feel.
Then we're like, "This is hard for me, but I'm not putting—" like, say the words out loud that you don't want them to think.
Callie Turk:
Yes, yeah. Co-regulation. Yes, together.
Daniel Cabaniss:
Yes. I'll just add on something really quickly as well, which is that, you know, we're talking about these students who are twice exceptional. And so that means that there are places everywhere where they are exceptional—right? And those strengths, either strengths or passions, you know—what's something that's really important, that they're really excited about?
And finding that, and then letting them take charge of that—of that aspect of the college process. And the way that I have really improved my executive functioning skills is around those periods, those areas of passion or strength. And then realizing, "Oh, I need a foundation to support that."
And so, yeah, you know, splitting up, right? To a certain extent letting them take those aspects. Taking—as parents or as counselors—taking control of the other aspects. And then as they sort of understand, "Oh, this is connected to that," including them in more.
Callie Turk:
And Sandra, I think you might have wanted to weigh in on this question as well. You can have the last word as we wrap up.
Sandra Fishler:
Ah, I was—quite frankly, I was so enraptured in what both of you shared. I think finding the balance and exactly that is so hard. Leaning into your strengths is so important. And I love that, Daniel—you're right, it's not just interests, it's passions. Right? Taking that and leveraging it, leaning into it, saying, "What would work best for me?"
And really, like, without being dazzled by going to the hardest school, as Talia was mentioning, or going to this school that everybody thinks is so cool and we've got to go there—or maybe a family member went to a particular school, and so you feel compelled that you have to go.
Kind of setting aside all of that outside noise and really leaning into your strengths and what you are passionate about and interested in, I think is a way to find the most balance. And of course, scaffolding and breaking down those tasks is essential.
Callie Turk:
Yeah. And we're gonna wrap up here because it's exactly 2:30. And I really just appreciate all of the wisdom and insights that all three of you shared today.
I hope everyone here walks away with this belief that neurodivergent kids can be successful in the college application process—as long as we are reminding them to take joy along the way, and we are seeing it as a learning experience for everyone.
And scaffolding and partnering and collaborating between parents, students, and their counselors—it can really be an affirming process. And kids can learn a lot about themselves and feel good about the decisions they're making at the end of the day that are going to impact the rest of their lives.
So thank you all for coming, for the important work that you're doing to support neurodivergent kids in reaching their goals and dreams, and to our three speakers today for just sharing so much of yourselves and your experiences with us.
Have a great day. Thank you.
