Behind the Mask: Understanding Anxiety, Perfectionism, and Masking in 2e Kids

Jamie and Rainn presented on "Behind the Mask: Understanding Anxiety, Perfectionism, and Masking in 2E Kids," discussing how 2E learners manage anxiety through masking while maintaining high academic performance. They explained how masking develops from years of social feedback and environmental cues, leading to identity confusion and burnout. The presenters shared their personal experiences as late-diagnosed neurodivergent individuals and emphasized the importance of creating safe spaces where children can remove their masks and express their true selves.

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See the transcript here:

Yael Valek: Welcome, everyone! Thank you for joining us, for Behind the Mask, Understanding Anxiety, Perfectionism, and Masking. We have over 540 registrants, so clearly this is a very big, topic, and I just want to point out that we do also have Spanish translation tonight.

In case you're not familiar with REAL, we are a Silicon Valley-based nonprofit that helps twice-exceptional students thrive in school by working with both parents and educators to increase awareness and understanding of strategies that are strength-based and are diversity-affirming, so that, we can address their needs successfully.

So, just in case you're not familiar with 2E, we like to use the Bridges model, which is that Children have distinguishing strengths, high abilities, or potential in one or more areas, and at the same time, they also have complex challenges, such as autism, ADHD, anxiety, dyslexia, or something else that keeps them from showing what they know fully at school.

And so, when these two combine, you really have to address the student that is green, the green part, not just the yellow or the blue, and that makes them a complex student to support in the classroom, and we'll learn about some of that tonight. And so, they really need support in both simultaneously.

So, Real offers many services for parents, including this expert speaker series that you're attending tonight. We also offer a bi-monthly Zoom support group, a Google group with hundreds of members, where you can ask questions and get answers about resources and any questions about things you're going through with your children.

We also have downloadable parent toolkits on all kinds of topics, from how to talk to your school, to, I just got a diagnosis, now what? We have a lot of online resources. I'll show you one in a second. A whole list of schools and how to choose a school for your TUI learner, and then we have two paid options, which are small facilitated groups of up to eight. Parents who talk about specific topics, such as there's one going on right now about motivation, and then one-on-one consultations if you'd like to go more in-depth about your learner. Here's an example of some of the parent toolkits, all downloadable for free on our site.

And Kelly, I think, is putting links in the chat.

And we have a 46-page IEP guide specifically for twice exceptional students in California and the Bay Area, although 90-95% of it is applicable anywhere. We know that it's different to try to get an IEP for your twice-exceptional Learner, so we hope this is helpful to you.

And for educators, we do custom professional development. One of the most popular things we come out and do is a learning difference simulation, which really develops empathy, and has been really a moving experience to be a part of. But we can customize all kinds of professional development. We also have a lot of recorded talks on many topics, from slow processing speed, to anxiety to writing challenges, and other online resources, and a bi-monthly educator newsletter.

And REAL has developed an educator model that goes through, both by grade level, and all these, pedals, develop… how to develop connection, embrace flexibility, attempt to strength, and reframe behaviors, and give specific examples under each one, to help you work with your two-way learners.

So we're coming to the end of our fall events, but all of the previous events, the recordings are on our site and on our YouTube channel. And there is one more event coming up on November 20th about mental health. Through our Neurodiversity education series. And if you sign up, for Reels newsletter, we will notify you in a couple of weeks about our spring lineup, so we're very excited for that. And our next two parent support group will be on January 8th.

And the sign-up for that is already on our site. You can follow group on, follow Real on all these different places, or join our Google group, where you can ask and answer questions again.

And now, as you can see by these sparkly photos, we have two very dynamic speakers tonight.

So, Rainstone is an Audi HD2E, trans, non-binary. You'll have LICSW and owner of Rainy Days Counseling, a telehealth practice serving queer and neurodivergent folks of all ages, with a special focus in children and adolescents and trauma-focused care and play therapy from a somatic and attachment, social justice-focused, and parts work perspective. Rain also frequently presents from both lived experience and clinical wisdom to help folks navigate this thing called life.

And Jamie Roberts is a licensed marriage and family therapist who identifies as neuroqueer and actively shares about her later-in-life diagnosis of autism and ADHD. Jamie is the founder of Equilibrium Counseling Services, a teen and young adult mental health center where all identities and brains are celebrated. In 2024, she founded Neuropebble as a central location to provide neurodivergent affirming and educational training. She is the author of the book Mindfulness for Teen Anxiety, and is an active speaker on the neurodivergent LGBTQIA+, and teen topics.

So, I'm gonna pass it over to them. We're so excited to have you.

Jamie Roberts: Thank you so much. I'm just gonna share my screen and get that set up. Here we go. It's all visible?

Rainn Stone (they/them): Very good.

Jamie Roberts: All right, well, we are excited to be here today and be a part of this conversation and share both our lived experience as well as our clinical experience. So we'll be presenting today Behind the Mask, Understanding Anxiety, Perfectionism, and Masking in 2E Kids. My name is Jamie Roberts. And… what are we talking about today, Rain?

Rainn Stone (they/them): Yeah, so today we're going to be talking about behind the mask. So we're going to be talking about understanding how anxiety and masking show up in 2B learners. We're going to give you some tools to help reduce that perfectionistic thinking and self-criticism. Help you understand why your kid seems so capable at school, and then is exhausted when they get home. And, you know, why do we seem fine on the outside, but then we're having these meltdowns? Where does this pressure to be… to be perfect and to… to pass as neurotypical come from? And so, really leaving you with some practical strategies to create safer spaces for everyone.

Jamie Roberts: And to just add on to that fantastic introduction of who we are, I wanted to add additional information. So, like was said, I'm Jamie Roberts. I'm in Southern California, I have a group practice, I also run clinical trainings for clinicians on neurodiversity-affirming care. Teenagers are my absolute favorite human beings. I think they're… they are so cool and have so much, room for growth and development and understanding of self and unique perspectives, and I just think they're so fun to work with.

My first book, Mindfulness for Teen Anxiety, came out in 2022 and is available, and my second book, Neurodiversity for Teen Girls, will be out next spring. I believe the waitlist… I just googled it right before this, and it is listed on all the websites, which is very exciting, but I received my ADHD diagnosis at at… 29, and my autistic diagnosis at 32. So it's been a big learning curve, but I've been working in the neurodivergent space for over 13 years, clinically, and I am a former gifted kid that went into mental health and followed that very direct path, and hit those burnout spots, was the perfectionistic, and wanted to become who I needed when I was younger. And that's why I do what I do, and why I'm here today.

Rainn Stone (they/them): Love that. Yeah, and I am Rain, they, them. I have rainy days counseling. I love kiddos, whether it be internal kiddos or actual kiddos, because really, are they that much different? And, you know, I'm really about, like, let's stop just pulling people out of the water, let's swim upstream, find out why they're falling in, and save them before it gets that far.

And I was also late diagnosed. I figured… I found out I was autistic in grad school after actually doing a research study on late-diagnosed autism. And, got tested, and it's like, oh yeah, you actually are autistic and ADHD. And so I now have had the privilege of working with so many people across a variety of contexts, and if I've found one thing, it's our nervous system speaks, we have to listen. And we all have a different way of doing that.

So, I've… I was also… I'm also 2E, former burnout gifted… or former gifted burnout kid, whatever. Clearly, I still mix up my words. And so, you know, being able to navigate those aspects of burnout and come to the other side and have this platform to share, like, how… how to get through the hard stuff, because the hard stuff is always going to be hard, is such a great privilege. So I'm excited to be here with you guys.

Jamie Roberts: And so today we're going to be talking about, like, distinguishing anxiety and perfectionism, and how those work together, and how anxiety, or how masking then covers up anxiety and the perfectionism that's going on, and the really chaotic internal world that your teens may… or your kids may be experiencing. So we'll go over some kind of general overarching anxiety traits that we tend to see in our neurodivergent 2E kids, and how we're gonna focus in a little bit more on autism, but, like, how the autistic experience of, the sensory overload, the really connected brain that takes in so much information, the expectation of masking, the double empathy problem, PDA, RSD, all of the fun acronyms, fun, that go into why kids mask, where the perfectionism is coming from, what… how it can be a coping mechanism, but how it also can feel harmless.

We'll talk a bit about the sensory piece, about how to regulate the nervous system, sensory-wise, when a kid is feeling that really intense anxiety, and they're going through those steps, how you, as a parent, a caregiver, an advocate, a teacher, a clinician, can also help guide kids in understanding what their nervous system needs in order to re-regulate, or how to tap into the dopamine need of where some of the anxiety and perfectionism comes from, how we can tap in to the brain system to get done the things we need to get done, and not overdo it. And how that can feel like flooding, and lead to the crash, and the emotional overwhelm, and the burnout, and the meltdowns that we feel. So we'll tap into each of these tonight. Mind you, like, this is a really big topic, and we've got, like, about an hour to talk, and then we want to open it up for conversation, so…

We're going to do our very best to give as much information. Given that we're both autistic, we tend to do, like, a bottom-up approach, so we want to give you, like, all the base information of, like, where this is coming from, why it is happening, what the brain and body are trying to do, so that we can know what the tools are, what the resources are, and how to kind of come up with a solution, as opposed to starting with, like, boom, here are the coping mechanisms, but, like, we also need to know, like, why it's happening for your particular kid. So that's kind of where we're coming from with giving you the information, and then we'll have it open for questions, after we've kind of downloaded all of that.

Sorry, my cat just laid on my keyboard. I had to find my tools. So what this will… oh, is it loading? There we go.

What this will also look like when anxiety and masking are coming up, we tend to see a lot of. high-masking people, their neurodivergent traits tend to go unseen or unnoticed because the mask is so strong, or because that's been so perfected. Or we've been in social skills classes that we've learned how to portray neurotypicality and then end up burning out after. And so, how do anxiety and masking go hand in hand? Often the anxiety comes from the feeling of unknown, or unknown expectations, or often unclear expectations, especially if you've got a kiddo who, like, needs all the contacts, like, I need to know why am I doing this, for what purpose? How's it going to support me? Why do you… why am I doing busy work at school? Right? Like, those… that buy-in is really important, and then especially if there are unknowns.

our brain… well, I'm gonna go into the brain. I'm jumping ahead. The brain needs to fill in that unknown, and so we tend to fill it in with worst-case scenario, which comes into how we want… trying to control situations. If something is, I don't know it, I'm going to try and control it the best I can, so that it is very predictable, and I don't get thrown off, my anxiety doesn't increase because I have full control. And that full control can turn into, like, masking of, like, I've got it under control, everything's fine, I can handle it, I don't need anybody's input.

I've got it, and that perfectionism builds up until it hits that overload, and it crashes, and everything falls apart, and it starts to kind of create this cycle of, like. Was it boom and bust of just, like, we've got it, we've got it, we've got it? No, I don't. And we kind of see that ebb and flow until it maybe reaches the point of, like, I'm not even gonna try anymore, because it always blows up. So we'll talk through, kind of, what that cycle looks like and how we can support our teams, throughout that.

Rainn Stone (they/them): So, when we're exploring masking in Chewy Kiddos, I want us to kind of really take into consideration that… and understand that it's not like a simple, put on a polite face kind of masking, right? It's also not a seaweed mask. It's a deeply complex, you know, layered experience of, like Jamie mentioned, trying to be safe. And it gets built from years of feedback, sometimes subtle, and sometimes really direct, about what's acceptable and what's not, and who's acceptable and who's not.

You know, kiddos spend their entire day reading a room, often with vigilant adults. and other peers who are also reading the room and figuring everything out. And they're scanning facial expressions, tone, expectations, and emotional climates with terrifying accuracy in terms of our 2E kiddos, often. They didn't make this stuff up, the mask didn't appear out of nowhere. They learned it, because they're naturally… not because they're naturally socially gifted, but because survival, you know, depends on predicting people's reactions in a lot of situations.

And so, hiding intensity to fit in, or not be too much, isn't just about Avoiding being labeled as dramatic. It's really about… Making sure that you're not ostracized. Hiding the dysregulation and staying the good kid is about maintaining the role as the easy, compliant, high-achieving child, because that's the one that people praise, because they don't require too much. You know, hiding sensory burnout or demand fatigue becomes necessary because those things get interpreted, you know, as choices, defiance, noncompliance, or emotional inability to be emotionally mature and things like that. But rather, it's just exhaustion.

And, you know, when we're… when folks are constantly scanning the environment to do social math and figure out what's expected as a form of masking, can't tune into themselves, either. And then, you know, another mask that I see a lot with 2E kiddos, and in my own experiences, became meeting expectations as a form of identity. I am what you expect of me, I am what I can achieve, and I am what I can do, because I I don't have time to figure out who I am outside of that, because I'm too busy trying to make sure I'm staying safe. So that becomes a tangible, easy thing to… easy thing to come back to. And then, you know, finally, like, hiding difficulties with transitions and context shifting. We have… there are so many expectations on our kids to be adaptable.

And, I mean, how many class periods are there in some school days? Eight? if I had to switch classes 8 times a day, I too would be having a meltdown on the floor. This is something I told one of my kids recently. And so… It's really… when we're talking about the mask, it's about identity work. Masking becomes a child's entire relational strategy. If I can just hold it together while I'm at school, if I can just keep being the good kid, if I can be impressive enough. you know, maybe I won't inconvenience anyone, as we… as we'll talk about later, with support needs. And the bottom line, though, is masking isn't sustainable. It erodes that authenticity and creates a self-image based on performance rather than truth.

And so then we get to the burnout, and identity confusion, and shutdown, and depression, and anxiety, and all the other things, but the mask gets praised itself, oftentimes, the calmness, the capability, the composure, and we don't even realize that we're praising a kid sometimes for silencing their inner truth.

And so, something I want us to kind of keep in mind through the presentation is, what would this kid be like if they were allowed to take the mask off, if safety, not performance, was the expectation?

Next! Yay!

So, kind of building off of that, a lot of… a common 2E experience is getting a lot of academic validation. And so. The thing is, is many choice exceptional learners believe that achieving high grades compensates for their perceived social struggles. Which then creates a cycle where academic success becomes a measure of self-worth and acceptance, going back to, I am what I achieved because, well, I haven't had the energy or time to figure out anything else, and also, it didn't come naturally encoded, maybe, you know? Or it's been eroded over years of social expectations.

And so, in this way, academic validation becomes a lifeline, emotional lifeline, but it also becomes a trap, right? Kids learn, if I'm exceptional, people will be proud of me. If I struggle, they'll be disappointed or confused. Which then morphs into often the only thing tethering them to their self-worth. And the social pressure added, of, you know. the pressure to excel academically often leads to feelings of inadequacy in social situations, right? I'm good at my grades, but I'm not good at, you know, talking to Jimmy Joe over there. I remember even growing up, my mom would tell me, like, for someone with such book smarts, you really don't have any street smarts. Just constantly, and I'm like, I know, but at least I read the Almanac, okay?

And, you know, we can see how that erodes someone's self-confidence. I made it a joke, and I still do even as an adult, but there's still that little bit of, actually, that hurts underneath the just joking.

And with the social pressure, you know, people inflate the two-wee experience of being gifted with, you know, excess maturity sometimes, assuming that these kids should be more self-regulated, more flexible, more resilient, more self-aware. They get used as the bell curve in classes, and But being gifted doesn't protect a kid from sensory overwhelm, it doesn't make transitions easier, it doesn't reduce anxiety around expectations or give them adult-level emotion regulation. There's a play therapy book, and one of my favorite things it says is kids are not tiny, or kids are not miniature adults.

And sometimes we expect them to be.

And then kids internalize the message of, I should be able to handle this, I should be more mature, less sensitive, and they start to believe that these are… their needs are failures rather than developmental realities.

Jamie Roberts: And what I'd just add to this as well is, often with 2E kids being in, maybe, public school settings, they're at the top of the bell curve, but then they're bored. And now school comes easy, they don't have to put in effort, they're bored, and maybe then they're moved to a school that is more accommodating, or challenging, or meets their intellectual or academic, like, capability, but now everybody in the class has that 2E, or that ability to perform academically, and now they're in a really rigorous, so it's a very big, extreme transition from what the peer pressure is, or what the, kind of, the norm is in that space, and then that can also be, like, a jarring, like, nervous system experience there.

Not that it shouldn't… we shouldn't put them in those, like, more complex, like, con… complex situations, but, like, understanding that transition space, what that preparation may be, how that may shift their academic pressure or the perfectionism and how that shows up. So what I often like to talk about is the neurochemicals and the intensity that can come with and where that brain biology piece is coming in for the anxiety and the perfectionism. So, a lot of our neurodivergent kiddos. if we're talking about the brain, we're talking about the prefrontal cortex, especially with ADHD and autism, and that is often controlled by dopamine. So a lot of behavior is controlled by dopamine seeking, and how to maintain that stimulation, and that… it's all or nothingness, right? And so what we see a lot is adrenaline is a very, like, clear way to increase dopamine production.

Well, where… what creates adrenaline? Anxiety increases adrenaline. Adrenaline releases dopamine. Dopamine leads to regulation. And so often we'll see with, like, ADHDers that that dopamine seeking will get more and more intense, and we might often think about it with, like, impulsivity, or extreme sports, or hyperactivity, but especially if you have a kid who is high masking, or has internalized their brain… wildness, if it's fast thoughts, if it's emotions, and they've internalized everything, that's gonna manifest as anxiety, and that's gonna build up that intensity to release the adrenaline, to release the dopamine, and it actually becomes a regulating factor, in which the anxiety and the perfectionism allows them to perform at school and manage their executive function, because there's, like, quick deadlines, and those deadlines and the procrastination to the deadline allows that prefrontal cortex to go online and do the executive function tasks. So it becomes a very clear coping mechanism of, I only get… I can write a whole paper in one night.

Because I'm at the deadline, and my adrenaline is flowing, and I've got enough dopamine, and my brain can do it. It's not necessarily, well, you've avoided it, you're not trying, why are we not doing this? But how do we tap into understanding the dopamine need of the brain, and how the deadline might actually allow the brain to complete those tasks in a more succinct way? And working with the kid, we don't want the deadline to increase the anxiety to where, like. they're having a meltdown, but how do we utilize that in knowing, okay, we need to make sure the night before a big paper is due, that we do have that evening cleared, because odds are we are going to procrastinate until then, because it is hard for your brain to get online without that level of pressure.

Some other things that might look like this is we will see, with the increase of adrenaline, it might also be where self-harm comes into the conversation, or pain regulation, because when the body experiences pain, it releases adrenaline. And adrenaline releases dopamine. So a lot of our kids, especially middle school, high school, when everything is feeling like too much, might redirect to a way in which the body knows more what to do with physical pain than emotional pain. And then it releases the adrenaline from the injury to release the dopamine, and it's regulating for a minute.

And then the pressures build again. And so understanding why some of this is happening, and how it is, like, a form of self-medicating and a coping mechanism, and not shaming it, but redirecting it and utilizing it for what purpose it is, of that This has served you, and these are the ways it has worked, and how can we switch it so it's not causing harm, but use it with intentionality? I've now allowed myself… I used to beat myself up about doing presentations the night before or the morning of something being due, and now I set deadlines, and if there's a deadline, I will do it right before the deadline, but I've created the space in my schedule and given myself that permission that I'm allowed to do it.

Because I know that's when it's gonna happen, whereas the hep before. I would be constantly in my head, why aren't you working on it? You need to be doing that. Why are you avoiding it? This is so unprofessional. You should know better. It's been years. Why can't you figure this out? And there's just, like, this heavy pressure of, like, well, then I'm faking it in front of everybody as this great professional, but I haven't done it yet. But now that I've allowed myself and understand how my brain processes that information, knowing that those deadlines help release the chemicals in my brain to do the tests. Has shifted from shame to acceptance.

So some ways that you can also work with the brain chemistry to support your… your kids. and more… I don't want to say healthy and unhealthy, but, like, more adaptive ways that might be less harm-causing, so we focus on, like, a harm reduction route. We don't want to do all or nothing, right? Because then that also creates perfectionism. If, like, it's one time of, like, I'm not allowed to have meltdowns anymore because I get in trouble for whatever reason. The expectation that a neurodivergent person is not going to have a meltdown ever again is an automatic fail.

So if we can create those stepping stones along the way of, like, did the intensity change? Did the duration change? Did the level of impact change? When were you able to speak about it? Those are all achievements, and they're gonna change differently depending on the situation. So we want to work on that harm reduction of, like, maybe the perfectionism's not going to go away. But how can we work with the perfectionism, or how can we decrease it to a place in which it is manageable? So sensory is a great way to work with the body to help regulate the nervous system, because that's what we're seeing. That's… the masking is protecting the nervous system. The perfectionism is a result of the nervous system feeling out of control. So sensory rise, vestibular, which has to do a kind of balance, so that's where we'll see the stimming, like, in rocking.

So if rocking is helpful, if swinging is helpful, the trampoline can be really good. And maybe your kid studies better on the trampoline, or while they're on a swing, or they're feeling upset, and it's like, you know what, we're gonna go to the park, and we're gonna swing it out, and we're gonna come back. And change this depending on their age and their interest, or whatever it is, but giving that body motion. Right? Because motion and movement also creates dopamine, which will help regulate.

if they're sensory-seeking, deep pressure, so whether that's, like, a squeeze, or a weighted blanket, or sour candy, or maybe it's loud music, something that can help redirect the nervous system. Some of us, sometimes when we're on the ADHD side, we need the jolt to our nervous system to kind of be like, oh, okay, I'm back here right now. can be helpful for those, like, sensory seekers, so it's gonna be different for each person, it's gonna be different in different situations. If I'm emotionally overstimulated, I'm gonna need something different than when I'm stressed out overstimulated, right? So, working with your kid and your family, figuring out As best we can about what are the different needs in different situations, so that we can start identifying that for that regulation piece.

Pain regulation is also very common for autistics and ADHDers. Because, again, pain, adrenaline, dopamine, regulation, right? There's a lot of ways that adults are allowed to use pain to regulate that kids are not allowed. If you think about… Exercising. Marathons! There's been a whole bunch of posts about marathons lately. That looks so painful, but it brings people so much joy to run a marathon, right? That's pain regulation. That is a dopamine flood. Exercising that intensity, wearing heels, and pain is beauty, or beauty is pain, like, that is a way. Tattoos, piercings, a lot of kink spaces, like, pain is a piece of regulating an adult are allowed to partake in that in ways that kids aren't. So how do we find ways that pain can be used in a very controlled and safe way? There are fidgets called ouchies, and they have, like, spikes on them.

that don't break the skin, but cause that sharpness. So think of, like, a sharp rock where you can, like, squeeze it and you can feel it in your palm. That can kind of bring a little bit of that sensation. An ice pack, especially if an ice pack goes on, like, the polyvagal nerve, that can help reset the nervous system. Exercise, a tight squeeze. Any of those things that can help, like, jolt the nervous system.

If they're more of, like, a soothing kid, they might need something really soft, or a squishmallow, or a furry animal. Decrease the lighting, soft music. What is… do we need to reduce all of the stimulation? Because sometimes there's just too much, and we need to reduce it.

And then music. If you listen to music at 152 beats per minute, it actually is stimulating enough for the ADHD brain that it can lock in focus. So you can find playlists on all of the things that are 152 BPMs. and pick the one that fits the genre you like, whether it's music, lyrics, or no lyrics. But I also like the idea of, like, pavlov-ing to, like, a soundtrack. So I have two albums. that with that album, I only listen to that album when I need to focus, and when that album is on, work mode starts. And I've been doing this for, like, 15 years now. That when… those are the song… the albums I use, and I can turn it on, and I know I have 47 minutes that I'm gonna zone in, and then I might put it on repeat 3 times, so, like, really creating, like, those spaces when they do need to focus, or when they do need to relax. Some activities that go along with that can be,

For helping with the stimulation piece of the… what's going on with the brain to release the dopamine. body doubling and parallel play, so you have another person to co-regulate with you, even if that's just they're doing homework at the kitchen table, and you're making dinner. Or you're sitting next to them doing bills, and they're doing homework. So it's just kind of in that same space, it doesn't have to necessarily be interacting. time blocking, so that their brain can predict and anticipate how long they have to do stuff. Some… some brains are different, so it's like, are we doing… do I have to finish all of math right now?

Or do I need to do math for the next hour? Right? And that can be different for the nervous system to be able to expect how long they're working on something. It doesn't mean maybe they're done for the night, but it's like, hey, in one hour, you get a break, versus once you do all the 95 problems, you get a break, because that can feel forever away. Dancing, movement, exercise, all of that is good for the nervous system.

Fun fact, coloring lights up the same part of the brain as meditating. So, if you have a kid that can't sit still and meditate, because I don't know who can, coloring, or art, or doodling. gives that singular focus and helps regulate that part of the brain. Like I was already saying, like, work with the deadline pressure as opposed to shaming around it. utilize special interests and gamify things. So if there are specific tasks that are very mundane and boring, or busy work from school they just don't want to do, how do we gamify it? How do we add a reward to it? How do we associate it with their special interests so that the motivation can kind of build up into it? So these are ways we can kind of hack the dopamine part of the brain to help regulate, but also to utilize focus or motivation in those spaces.

Whew, that's a lot of words. So here's what we start to see if some of these supports aren't in place. This is a timeline that I've kind of put together from clinical experience over the last, like, 15 years with teens, but also in the research.

Jamie Roberts: So what I start to see… With kids is about 4th, 5th grade, the anxiety starts to increase. They start to be a little bit more aware of the social differences, or the social pressures, or the importance of grades, or different dynamics, and become more self-aware of that, and maybe self-critical. So the anxiety starts to ramp up. By 5th, 6th grade, the depression might start to creep in of feeling like, I'm too much, or I'm not enough, or I'm working on this and it's not being seen, or will things ever change? And we start to see the depression kind of build up then.

By 6th, 7th grade, we'll see some more of the intensity of masking, and that's where we might see self-harm, and that might be with eating disorders, that might be with physical injury, but they're starting to self-medicate and figure out, how can I control this situation? It's feeling like too much. And that might also be… that's often where we see, kids start coming into therapy in those middle school years, or going to higher levels of care, like an IOP… an intensive outpatient program or a partial hospitalization.

So by 7th, 8th grade, this might look like, suicidal ideation. Maybe not attempts, but the thoughts might start popping in about, like, will it always be like this? Will it ever change? This feels like too much. You might be seeing the burnout, you might start seeing anger, you might start seeing reactivity. And… if that keeps boiling over, we tend to see a huge crash by 9th, 10th grade. And that might be not caring about school anymore, or it might be distancing from peers, or it might be just, like, constant… maybe they're still perfectionistic about school, but you're seeing burn up constantly, or their ability to maintain the expectations starts to kind of shake a little bit. So this is why I think it is so important to be aware of some of these signs. earlier on. So that we can, when the anxiety first pops up, let's start addressing it so that it doesn't develop to this same degree in depth over this timeline, and we're not coming in in the 9th grade and crash out. So this is something I also pay attention to if I have, like, a 15-year-old come in who's never been diagnosed, and we look back and we see this timeline is there, we immediately go in with that assessment for a neurodevelopmental difference.

So I like to share this. You can kind of see, like, where is my kid on here? Is this the pattern we're going with? Is this changeable? Where can we interject and kind of bring in more resources?

Rainn Stone (they/them): So we've talked a little bit about, kind of, where perfectionism comes from, and the neurodevelop… neurodevelopment… neurobiological aspects of it. Let's unpack perfectionism a little bit itself. And so, when we were talking about this, a term that came up is the 150% effort phenomenon. Of, you know, a lot of times 2E learners feel like they have to consistently put in 150% effort to keep up with expectations, which then makes 100% effort feel inadequate and leads to burnout.

And… and that comes from, like, 2E kids learn to maintain their identity, their safety, their relationships, like we've talked about, through perfection, through high achievement. And so, they feel like they need to operate oftentimes at 150% just to feel average and make up, so will you, for their lack of social abilities, or books, or street smarts, whatever. And so their baseline becomes overextension. They just don't even know what 100% feels like anymore.

I remember it being, you know, an undergrad and even in high school. I had teachers who would be like, I don't know how you do it, or how you're, you know, taking so many classes, or whatever, and I'm like, well, I… I don't know, it's just normal for me at this point, because taking any less would feel like failing. It would feel like just being average. An average is never acceptable.

And, and so that really also comes down to a fear of failure, not just disappointment, but obliteration, basically. If you've built your entire identity around being capable, mistakes become existential, right? They threaten the only stable part of your self-concept, because if your self-concept is based on what you're achieving and based on your other people's perceptions of you, it's going to be constantly evolving. Grades are very tangible, right?

we can see, oh, I'm an all-A student, and, like, kids get awards for that! And no wonder it becomes such a big part of identity. And no wonder it becomes such existential. Who am I outside of being a honor roll? And so that can create chronic anxiety avoidance, and sometimes even total refusal to try, unless success is guaranteed, because I don't want to make… mess up, I don't want people to know that I can't do everything, so I'm only going to do the things I'm really, really good at.

And then if we make a mistake on something we're good at, oh, I can't do that anymore. And we can see how the world becomes a lot smaller over time.

And then there's also this recognition-seeking, and I want to be clear, this is not about vanity at all. Oftentimes, kiddos place… oftentimes, getting recognition… getting recognition is one of the most consistent places that they receive positive emotional feedback. When kids learn to communicate through accomplishment, or the adults learn to communicate through accomplishment as well, because let's be real, as adults, we do place expectations on our kiddos, unintentionally or intentionally.

then accomplishment becomes the primary language for love or pride, and then we, you know, it gets equated with, like, stability and belonging. Perfectionism is never about the task, it's about self-preservation. It's about feeling like, if I falter, I'll be seen differently, or I might be loved differently, whether or not that's been proven.

And so, as adults of kiddos, we have to be really careful not to, number one, confuse performance with well-being, and number one… and number two, to understand that When we say, give it your all, well, sometimes kids are gonna think, give it your all means give it your all and then some. Like, 150%.

So, underneath the perfectionism comes a lot of pressure, and something that's a very common experience in neurodivergent folks is rejection-sensitive dysphoria. Rejection-sensitive dysphoria is where real or perceived rejection, mistakes, anything like that. Feel really, really intense to a neurodivergent nervous system. And very unsafe.

Bad grades can lead to overwhelming stress and a fear of social rejection among peers, and the RSD kicks in, I'm not good enough, I'm never going to be good enough. See? I don't deserve people to care about me. And this creates a cycle where they push past capacity, burn out, crash, hide the crash, mask harder, repeat, because of the shame created from crashing.

Even if we haven't crashed and we've just, you know, been a normal teenager, that cycle still repeats. And so by adolescence, a lot of teens are so terrified of disappointing others. that they, you know, start to engage in academic avoidance, procrastination, shutdown, panic. I just can't do it at all if I can't do it perfect, which then adults can misinterpret as laziness or irresponsibility, when in fact, avoidance is protective. Avoidance says, if I can't guarantee perfection, I'm not gonna do it. Because I don't want people to see my vulnerabilities, because vulnerability can feel really, really unsafe.

And again, this is just a nervous system overwhelmed by expectation, not a lack of motivation.

So, what do we, like, do about that, I guess? So, another… thing that comes along… well, I gotta back up a second. PDA! My ADHD got ahead of me. So, PDA is another thing that goes along with 2E learners a lot. So, a definition I like to use of PDA is a nervous system response where everyday demands feel threatening and autonomy becomes the primary safety need. Meaning, in simpler terms. I want to direct my own life, and if I'm not directing my own life and what I want, even… then…

It doesn't feel safe. And so that can look a lot like avoiding, if not perfect. Like we've talked about, also justice-driven avoidance. I've talked to so many of my clients, and my own self, of, like, things that I've just not done because I didn't understand why the rules were the rules, or why I had to do it. Busy work. I see this a lot with my two-week kids, like, why do I have to do this? I already know this information. I don't need to prove this to you. Showing your work on a paper, that can also be an example of PDA. Like, why do I have to show you my work? I did it in my head.

Well, because that's an expectation, but doesn't seem just. It's also important to remember that motivation is not equal to initiation. So, somebody can have all of the motivation in the world and want to do well. If I had to say, all of my clients have all the motivation in the world, for the most part, and they want to do well internally, they just don't have the initiation to get started.

And that initiation is the nervous system's response, not the value-based motivation. We can value something, but not be in the nervous system place to be able to get started. And then also, along with that, you know, languaging can feel like a demand. If we tell a kid, you have to do this, you know, there's… so many demands on kids in general, but especially for 2E kids, who then are perfectionists, taking every demand as the extreme, I have to do 150%,

Everything just gets really overwhelming. So, some ways that we can help with task avoidance is, number one, honor the neurodivergent justice system. Validate fairness instincts, offer transparency on why expectations are expectations. Most of the time, if a neurodivergent can understand it, we're probably going to be way more on board with it.

So offer transparency and collaboration. You know, if your 2E learner is like, this doesn't make sense to me, and here's why, don't just shut it down. Collaborate. Help me understand why that doesn't make sense. Where are you coming from? What values are showing up for you?

Lower the demand if we need to, soften the expectations, remove the urgency. So much of our world and our society just feels so urgent all the time. I often say, like, my skin feels like it's on fire, and there's always somebody that needs something. If we feel that way as adults with fully formed brains and a nervous system that has somewhat had enough time to learn what to do with it. imagine how our tiny ones feel, and their brains are not fully formed, and they are still learning many, many things. Does that mean that they don't know things? No, that means that the biggest thing they're still forming is emotion regulation. And create spacious pacing. You know, Jamie talked about earlier working with your brain with deadlines instead of, you know, against it.

Supporting initiation, start with tiny entry points. Hey, can we do one problem on this math assignment? hey, what would it be like to just go get our backpack from our room? We don't have to do anything else right now. With online school, you know, hey, I've noticed sometimes you forget about your schoolwork. Can we bookmark that website, just so that it's, like, on the front of your mind?

oh my gosh, I got these really cool stickers, do you want to, like, put together a calendar and see how fun we can make it? So, find the tiny little entry points, and pair that with co-regulation and sensory activation, going back to those neurochemicals. Use PDA, safe languaging, you know, making observations. I've noticed this. I wonder what it would be like if we did this, not, hey, you need to do this.

That just keeps the brain from shutting down. It seems like such a small language shift, but it really does completely change how the nervous system responds to demands. And offering curiosity. You know, behind every… behind every PDA reaction, behind every RSD reaction, is a nervous system saying, I have a need.

And that's helping to restore autonomy, providing choices, flexibility, alternatives, and escape routes. You know, sometimes I… I told one of my clients recently, I said, I just want you to try doing this for 5 minutes. And after 5 minutes, you hate it completely, and you cannot do it, okay. You just gotta give it 5 minutes.

And oftentimes, it's the initial hurdle of, oh, it's like the monster under the bed. If we look under the bed, we realize the monster may be not as scary as we thought it was gonna be in the first place.

Caity: That's inside out.

Caity: Silly.

Jamie Roberts: I love that. I often say to my clients, like, let's just do an experiment. Like, it might be silly, it might be cringe, but, like, let's just do an experiment and see what happens. And that'll give us more information to know if this is going to be a fit for you or not.

Which goes along with, like, how do we reframe perfectionism, and how do we work with it versus against it, and lowering some of that, like, intensity for the demands. So, I love this, but practice makes better. Instead of practice makes perfect, right? Because we…

Perfect's not achievable. It's not real, it doesn't exist. But, you know what? Like, we do have to practice things. That's why we have homework. We want to get better at stuff, and we want to improve. But we're going to constantly be improving. That's what… part of what learning is. So, with practicing… practice makes better. We're emphasizing the growth that allows the individual to focus on the progress, as opposed to the perfection or the outcome. And especially if we've got some all-or-nothing thinkers that might be really rigid in what the expectation is, we want to be introducing those steps along the way, and not just celebrating, you've got the A on the test, or we got the A on the grades, or you finally turned in all of your homework assignments, but acknowledging the effort that goes into that. oh, you got started, great job! Hey, you want a snack while you're working? Awesome, like, I'm so proud of you for doing this piece of acknowledging the effort as much as or more than the actual accomplishment, right? Because we also have some, like, delayed gratification…

delayed gratification can be real hard with these learners, so we need to give some of those rewards along the way, and it's not just once we reach the end or you finish the thing, but it's along the way that we're giving that, those affirmations and those supports so that they stay motivated and stay engaged.

And sometimes, too, so it makes sense as to, like, why am I doing these tasks? Like, if it's just to get into college one day, but I'm in 8th grade, like, you gotta connect that for me. We have to create those steps along the way about why that might be the goal, how that's valuable to my life today. Right now, we have these still developing brains that aren't thinking in the future that far, and that might feel like this really overwhelming burden of everything is writing on this class, and what if it doesn't work, or what if I can't? Which turns into, I'm not even gonna try.

If it can't be perfect, I don't even want to try it. If it takes me longer than 2 minutes, especially if we have kids who in elementary school could take a test without reading the material, who could finish where the first one's done with things, and now they're in middle school, where the academic expectations are harder, or the class switches add something, or the social pressures increase, now there's all these other factors that are making the learning environment more difficult, and maybe there's this feeling of, well, if it doesn't come easy to me, I don't know how to study. I don't know how to do those points in between. What does that progress look like? A lot of us that sequencing of steps can be really hard, of like, okay, I can't fully see the end product, so I don't even know where to start or that initiation. So if we can help identify the steps along the way, it feels more attainable in that process. So, looking at what are our values over our achievements. Are we valuing somebody who sticks with something and puts in their greatest effort?

Are we valuing their loyalty and friendships? Are we valuing their honesty in addition to what they're doing in the academic space? And being able to balance all of those, like. Like, Inside Out was mentioned earlier, but like, yeah, looking at that whole inside core person, what are our core beliefs, what are the things that are important to us? Because we're raising well-rounded kids that can show up in different spaces, and they might have strengths in one side, and they might have difficulties in others, and how do we develop all of those muscles so that there isn't an imbalance in their nervous system?

And that's where we start to find some of the authenticity of who are they, what are their values, what are the things that are important to them? Like, a lot of stuff at school is a demand, and it's prescribed, and you have to do it this one way. So how do we figure out the way that works for this brain and this nervous system and this kid in front of us, so that they can achieve it, they can access it. And they feel that autonomy that they can do it their way, because we want to teach the skill, as opposed to just get it done. Right?

And that helps with building that identity of self, so where masking may not be as necessary, because they really know who they are, and we've identified those core traits of what they value.

And talking about our core beliefs, slide. Poor beliefs often come from what our expectations are. A lot of times when we're talking with, like, little, like, little kids. A lot of that is led by the parents, and what you believe, you teach your kid, they come with you, they go along with it, because they're new to the world, and you're teaching them along the way. And once we start to get to middle school and high school, kids start to separate. They want to find their own identity, they want to find their own voice, they want to do it their way, and how are we setting them up for success in those spaces, of being able to do it with autonomy, and…

teaching them still, that they don't have it all yet, but they want to feel like they do, and giving that, like, interdependence of, like, I've got you if you fall, but I'm gonna let you go, so that we can kind of test that space. So being clear about what the expectations are. Often, as adults, we say something, and there might be additional meaning to what we're saying, or it might be interpreted different from the kids about, like. Hey, I need you to do the best in that class.

And they're putting in 150%, and they're having that crash. What is their best? What does that mean in your home and your family? Is that… that they were able to complete it, that they tried, that they did X, Y, or Z, and really determining what does your best mean? What happens if they trip along the way. What happens if the expectation isn't met? Is that clear as well? I think this comes in not only in, like, rewards, but also in punishments. If something comes up that they are grounded, or there is a consequence, are we clear in, like, where this came from, what the expectation was?

how long this consequence is lasting? How could they maybe earn their way out of it, so that there's a lot of clarity In the whole conversation, because we started this off with, a lot of anxiety comes from when things feel out of control. There's a lot of unknowns, and that unknown and that loss of control increases the fear. So as much information as we can provide as to why, when, how, where.

And this doesn't have to be a negotiation to where they're having as much say. You can still be the parent that has the boundaries and the rules. but bringing them into the discussion, so they understand and have the buy-in about, this is why it happened, this is why this is what's happening, so that they learn that thought process that goes along with it, to be able to make those choices when they move out, when they leave for college, when they're having… when they're getting to live independently, because they learned what that thought process looks like.

Which goes with the perfectionism of, Are my expectations realistic? And what values do those meet? Is that a neurotypical or expectation? Is that a capitalistic-driven expectation? Is that what I actually believe? Is that a should that I actually don't buy into? Is there an alternative that might still meet that need? And where does that come from societally? Is that coming from social pressure with peers? Is that coming from social media?

Is that things that maybe educators are saying for what the classroom is, and that we can support a kid in advocating to ask clarity for the teacher. When you said, do this, what did you actually mean? I need more context. So they can advocate And practice that for when they're in work environments, and if they're not given full context, or they need accommodations, how do we talk about that versus feeling like we have to mask it or hide it?

Or knowing when there are times we do have to mask. We're, like, masking is a safety mechanism, and there are times that we do have to mask. Or we need to be able to say, I want a mask now, and I don't want a mask now, and how do we work that in together, that it's not just, we all have to be able to unmask, because there is a necessity to it. Also to help reduce some of the shame.

of when it might be hard, or when it might be difficult, or when maybe they don't meet their own expectation, and maybe it was realistic and something else came up, or there's another chance, or they can keep trying, that it's not a one time and you fail, but like, okay, even if you failed a class, even if you have to take summer school, even if you have to do credit recovery.

okay, you're retaking the class. It's still going to show up on your transcript, you can still transfer to college, you can still do these things. grades can always be recovered, right? Mental health is the thing we want to prioritize, of making sure their mental health is good. We can always find other routes to correct academics or education or get what we need that way. So reducing that expectation of the shoulds that lead to the shame, that lead to the masking, that lead to the secrets.

And a lot of those shoulds come from ableism, and internalized ableism, and the overall mental load that 2E brains are managing with all of the information they may be taking in, or what they're choosing to block out, because it can be overwhelming. So, often with internalized ableism, it's those, intentional or unintentional shoulds of, I should be able to do this. I shouldn't be stressed by this.

My classmates aren't spending 4 hours finishing this U.S. history assignment, so I should be able to do this faster. I should be getting a better grade. Like, or I should have more free time, because I want to rest. Like, where do those shoulds come from about what their capabilities are, and how are their alternatives? And how do we continue to reinforce that brains are different, environments are different, supports are okay, we need them for a lot of different reasons.

That aren't just based on their neurotype, or their learning disability, or whatever it may be. Because 2E learners often engage in the constant environmental scanning of seeing what are other people doing, what are other people needing, and assessing their surroundings for those potential threats, or ostracization, or just overwhelm of, like, I don't want to do the thing anymore because it is just taking too much out of me, and the burnout comes in early. There's a lot of social math.

that is going on for them to be able to calculate the dynamics of the environment and those expectations. And you might have kids who are just completely checked out of it about, like, nope, this is too much, I don't want to keep track of whatever the new HIIT thing is. That is not important to me. I am not into that, which, good for them, but also, that might mean there's isolation, because they're not connecting with their peers, because they are leaning into being their authentic self, or not buying into whatever the social pressure is, but that, as great as that is, it also can be lonely.

And… they're aware of that. Kids are very perceptive about what is accepted, what is not accepted, what behavior they might see their friend get bullied about, or… doesn't even have to be bullying, it could just be the side-eye. You're standing in a group of people and you see a side-eye when your friend does something or when you do something. That rejection sensitivity can be triggered and pop up. That creates this whole internal dialogue of the shoulds and how something should present in different environments. So…

talking through that, I think a lot of times as adults, getting to model what our own internal experience is in those environments about, like, oh. I had such a hard day today, like, at the PTA meeting, I was having a hard time keeping track of where the conversation was going, because it was disorganized this week, right? You're naming it, and you're giving them that validation that you experienced that too, or this happens in lots of areas of life, So that it's…

It's clear that it's not just a them thing, that this is experienced by more people, and that there can be a normalizing experience of calculating all that information and tracking everything going on in their environment.

Rainn Stone (they/them): So, that connects really well to support needs. So… Oftentimes, support needs are the exact opposite of what adults expect in 2E kiddos. And the first reason is alexithymium. So, alexithymia, which can be diff… which is difficulties with interoception, which is difficulty with reading your body's cues, basically. It is not not having emotions. I, heard someone describe it as…

Emotional color blindness, or if you microwaved a bunch of gummy candies together and you couldn't really separate them, but you can tell there's something there, but it just kind of seems like a big mess. And so alexithymia can lead to not realizing needs, both physical and emotional, which then can lead to a crash from needs being unmet. It's like, I don't have needs, I don't have needs, oh my god, I have too many needs, they can't all be met right this second, and then I'm suddenly in a meltdown, or a burnout.

Additionally, daily fluctuation is really a hallmark of 2E neurology. One day, you know, your 2E learner might be able to do algebra on their head, and the next, they can't start a simple worksheet. One day, they can write a brilliant essay, and the next, picking up a pencil feels like the hardest task in the world. A lot of times, we as adults see this as inconsistency, but it's not inconsistency, it's kind of developmental reality of different times. We're gonna have different abilities based on where our nervous system is. Makes sense in theory, but in the moment when we're trying to do our math homework and it's 8 PM, feels really frustrating, right? And so that can also lead to internalized shame. Support needs may increase as burnout increases or demands increase. As Jamie was talking about earlier, as we get older and school demands increase, suddenly I can't meet these demands that we're… is so easy, you know, years ago. I don't know how to study, like Jamie said, and that can lead to a lot of shame. And so, a learner may feel shame for higher support needs, especially if they were persistently celebrated for being mature, and independent, and high-achieving, and having it all together, and it's like, suddenly you need help?

I remember being told by one of my, late middle school teachers, like, you never need help, like, you were always, like, you've never needed help, what's up with you? And it was, like, this big shame thing for me, because I was like, well, what's up with me is, like. I just need help, why is that so weird? But it made me not want to ask for help again, because it felt like everyone was allowed to ask for help but me.

And that goes back to that peer comparison we talked about earlier, like, I can't be the one struggling, if I'm struggling, what does that mean for other people?

And so, I always like to kind of go back to this diagram, which is the circle of security. And it's, I did not create this. The… it's by Cooper and Hoffman, and it's from a parenting training. Parent training course for kids, for parents who have their own trauma. But what's really important is we often assume that giftedness equates to independence or emotional independence, that if a child can explain their feelings.

They must also be able to regulate them, or if a child can, you know, be on all these clubs and do all these amazing things, like, why can't they just have, like, decent behavior? And the thing is, cognition doesn't regulate our nervous system. Giftedness doesn't replace attachment. Insight doesn't soothe overwhelm. And so what kids need is a secure base. They need you to support their exploration to go out into the world.

They need you to watch over them, make sure that they're safe, delight in them, show that you are proud of them, that you're happy with who they are, and thrilled with them as a person. Help them when they need it. and enjoy with them. So that's kind of them going out to the world, doing the cool things, exploring, and then something goes wrong. When something goes wrong, kids need a safe haven to return to. They need you to welcome their coming to you. They need you to protect them. They need you to comfort them.

And there's one thing that's the same on the top and the bottom, which is delight in me. They need you to be thrilled with them when they're doing well, and when they're struggling. And that can be hard sometimes to remember, is my kid needs celebrated in their hardest moments, not just their highest moments. And they need you to help them organize their feelings.

And so the saying is, like, always be bigger, stronger, wiser, and kind. When possible, follow my child's need, and when necessary, take charge.

Yeah.

And so, how do we do that? Really, through curiosity. Curiosity is one of the most powerful relational tools that we have. It interrupts judgment, it challenges internalized narratives, it prevents adults from defaulting to punitive interpretations of behavior. Curiosity says, instead of assuming what this behavior means, I'm gonna wonder… I'm going to let you show me, instead of forcing you to align with what I expect.

When we explore the underlying need, everything changes. What need is this behavior meeting? What safety is this child trying to create? What overwhelm is this child trying to solve? Clarifying expectations. Reduces anxiety, especially demand anxiety. Oftentimes, 2E learners are gonna set the bar really, really high if we let them set it themselves.

And so, you know, kind of showing what is the bar really? Kids are often terrified of disappointing us, themselves, or peers, and vague instructions just create panic.

Also, break things up. Breaks are not rewards or escapes, they're regulation tools. Prevent meltdowns before they have to occur. I know for myself, if I hit 2 hours of one thing consistently and I have not had a break, my brain is dead, I'm about to scream into a void or someone's face. It… we don't know yet.

And so, divide tasks into… I don't actually scream at people, to be clear. But divide tasks into manageable steps. You know, like Jamie mentioned earlier, show them how to get from point A to point B if need be, because when we're just staring at the mountain, it can be hard to find the first foothold.

And then also allow emotional expression. Provide space for meltdowns, provide space for having big feelings, for this isn't fair, for this kind of sucks, and I'm not having a good time. You know, curiosity communicates safety, control communicates fear, and fear shunts learning and connection down.

Jamie Roberts: So we're working with our kids about building identity, building that authenticity piece, building their voice, so that we can help them advocate, but also remove the mask and find the spaces in which they are accepted and validated and seen for all their greatness. And so, moving beyond the mask, we're developing that self-concept of what they connect with, what their special interests are, where their values are, what their hopes and dreams are, so that they can identify in those spaces. So, moving beyond perfectionism and achievement allows two individuals to embrace their unique strengths.

while reducing the pressure of living up to those societal expectations. So we're bringing in other values, we're bringing in other goals, other achievements that might move beyond just academics. And also, if academics is where we thrive, how do we learn to balance it, how to regulate it, and how to move into it with intention and control so that it doesn't become overburdensome? Embracing that authenticity, embracing the quirks, embracing the unique way of learning, or gaining that information, understanding that also reflecting on what might be our, as an adult, our internalized ableism of what that expectation might be, of expecting our kids to have multiple friends. Is that what they want? Is that how they socialize? Do they need to hang out in person? Are they okay hanging out in online spaces? How do they reach out and find the people that they do connect with to build those environments? And that It may not be until they're in college, or they're able to be in other spaces, or be in a new social group, so how do we

identify that and support them in developing that authenticity and being proud of who they are, in order to advocate. So, connecting with their true selves, facilitating their healthy expression of identity, that also Having anxiety is gonna be a thing that shows up, so not shaming that piece of them. How to know that anger is okay, that we are allowed to have every emotion, and how do we want to choose to express it, right? That it's okay to be angry, but how do we want to let it out? It's okay to use pain regulation, but how do we want to do it in a safe way? It's okay to dislike doing this activity.

And how do we want to express that to the people around us, so that they do have that autonomy and choice in building their voice?

Rainn Stone (they/them): So, practical strategies, because we know it's great to understand why something's happening, but what to do about it. We've said this a couple times, but clear expectations, establishing clear expectations is crucial for reducing anxiety. By outlining specific achievable tasks, we help kids understand what's required, making them feel more secure.

And that's not just about clear expectations with homework. That's clear expectations when it comes to how we interact in the family, what's expected at home, what's expected emotionally from you, what's expected in how you contribute to society. You know, expectations exist everywhere. I think sometimes we forget that, so… Having the conversation is not just about schoolwork, but about expectations overall.

And then breaking things into manageable, gradual steps. Like we've talked about a few times. It encourages a sense of accomplishment as each step is completed.

Also allowing… I messed up the flow of our slides earlier, I think.

Jamie Roberts: I did, too. I think I took one of your slides earlier.

Rainn Stone (they/them): I think I took one of your slides, okay. So…

Jamie Roberts: It's not perfect, either!

Rainn Stone (they/them): That was why I hesitated. Okay, so, also, allowing space for emotion regulation or emotional expression, like we talked about earlier, understanding and supporting emotional needs. Meltdowns are okay. I am a full-blown therapist with two degrees in emotions and what to do with them. Do you think I don't have meltdowns sometimes? Please let my dog tell you I do. And sometimes he's the tissue.

Allowing space for meltdowns creates an environment where emotional expression is valued, fostering safety and understanding rather than punishment or criticism for dysregulation. As long as we're melting down safely, and, you know, it's not… taking away our ability to function, a good cry is really great sometimes, or however meltdown looks for, you know, your learner. It's okay to have big feelings, and it's okay for those big feelings to come out really, really messy, as long as that messy is safe.

And also recognizing the different nervous system states helps in understanding responses. If we know what's happening, it's not some big unknown—which we've established neurodivergent people often dislike. So, as I like to say, “name it to tame it.” If we understand the different responses, that enables therapists and parents to better support learners through their fluctuating emotional experiences.

To make sure you are equipped with lots of resources, here is a list of some books that are great starting points for understanding the neurodivergent brain, emotional reactivity, and perfectionism. I may have been biased and put my book at the top of the list, but that’s okay! Some of these are really great for nurturing autistic young people: The Autistic Burnout Workbook by Dr. Megan Anna Neff, The Explosive Child by Dr. Ross Green—who also has a parent and therapist protocol called Collaborative Proactive Solutions, which focuses on collaboration between child and adult to meet expectations. The idea is that if a child isn’t meeting expectations, it’s because they can’t—so how do we shift expectations to make them more achievable?

You’re on Fire, It’s Fine is another great book for parents of kids with big emotions who may be in crisis states. Some organizations with valuable resources include PDA North America, Neurodivergent Insights (Dr. Megan Anna Neff’s platform), NeuroPebble (my continuing education platform, which also welcomes parents and caregivers), and Autism Career Pathways in the Bay Area, which supports young adults entering the workforce and trains employers to support neurodivergent employees. Yellow Ladybugs offers wonderful insights, and the Stoll Learning Center supports twice-exceptional (2E) kids and offers free resources and podcasts. Embrace the Muchness has an amazing ADHD resource list, and ndtherapist.com is a directory of self-identified neurodivergent clinicians. This QR code will take you to my full resource list, including books, podcasts, and organizations to continue supporting your relationship with your kids.

Rainn added a couple more resources: Living with Intensity, a book about reframing giftedness as intensity in intellect, emotion, and sensory experience, and Navigating Your Rainforest Mind, another excellent read. We also want to highlight the upcoming Autistic Clinical Insights conference. Rain and I are both presenting—Rain five times, me twice, and one presentation together on neuroqueering therapy for teens. It’s all autistic-focused content, with 25 presentations over three days, a low entry fee, and some of the biggest names in the autistic community.

Yael then thanked us, saying how dynamic and fascinating the session was—she even took ten pages of notes! After some questions, one parent asked whether 152 BPM music works for younger kids (ages 7–9). Jamie explained that you can search Spotify or YouTube for 152 BPM playlists; there are options in many genres, including kids’ songs.

Another parent shared that they weren’t identified as gifted due to dyslexia and asked how twice-exceptional kids who don’t fit traditional academic molds might show perfectionism outside academics. Jamie said it’s about identifying where their strengths show up—maybe in organizing their space or creativity—and helping them use those strengths to expand in other areas. Rainn added that it’s also important to notice how perfectionism feels in the nervous system, and to trust that intuitive sense.

When asked about helping kids see themselves unmasked and enjoy being unmasked, Jamie shared creative strategies—games that invite silliness and vulnerability, or group music activities that allow kids to express emotions indirectly. This helps them feel safe and seen behind the mask. Creative and theatrical settings can also help kids explore different identities safely. Rainn added art activities, like drawing or creating Pinterest boards showing “masked” vs. “unmasked” selves, or exploring characters they relate to through roleplay—since kids often express themselves through their special interests as much as through words.

Jamie also shared the story behind NeuroPebble: it comes from “penguin pebbling,” where penguins gift pebbles to show affection. Neurodivergent people often show love in similar ways, sharing small, meaningful gestures or facts—so the brand celebrates that.

Another question came up about balancing pushing kids to try things versus honoring their nervous systems. Rainn advised first asking why the child is resisting—whether it’s perfectionism, PDA, burnout, or simply too many new experiences. Jamie added that front-loading expectations helps: watching videos about the activity, visiting the space, or driving the route in advance reduces unknowns. She also suggests a “mental health day” system and framing new activities as experiments—gathering information without pressure or long-term commitment.

A homeschool parent asked how to help their child, who compares himself to peers in public school. Jamie emphasized validating the grief of missing that experience while also recognizing the strengths of his self-directed learning. Two things can be true at once—it’s okay to appreciate his path and still grieve what’s missed. Rainn shared her own story of taking a nontraditional schooling path, which she doesn’t regret but still mourns certain social experiences. She reminded parents that while their kids may be “missing” conventional milestones, they’re also gaining meaningful ones—like better rest and less burnout.

Finally, a question came up about balancing expectations for newly diagnosed neurodivergent young adults versus neurotypical peers. Rainn suggested examining where expectations come from—are they based on necessity or societal pressure? For example, “manners” or internships may reflect ableist or colonial norms that don’t always serve the child’s needs. Jamie agreed, adding that the traditional “timeline” for education and independence isn’t one-size-fits-all, and may need adjustment to prevent burnout. Parents may also need to grieve their expectations while embracing the reality of their child’s unique path.

The session closed with gratitude and appreciation from everyone. Yael thanked Rainn and Jamie for one of the most dynamic and engaging sessions she’d ever seen. The recording, feedback link, and slides would be shared afterward.

Jamie and Rainn thanked everyone warmly for attending, and the chat filled with hearts and gratitude.