Video: Living and Learning 2e: What Neurodivergent Teen Students Say

Neurodivergent, twice-exceptional teen students have few forums to express their lived educational experiences. Recently, Silicon Valley 2e advocacy group REEL launched its “Living & Learning 2e” blog series, dedicated to giving twice-exceptional teen and young adult students a place to share their voices. The bloggers include gifted students from ninth grade through sophomore year in college with a range of learning differences such as autism, ADHD, dysgraphia, and anxiety. While every 2e learner is different, come hear the common themes that emerged across the six bloggers’ experiences that shine a light on ways parents and educators can better support them, then hear from a couple of the bloggers themselves!

Read the transcript here

Introduction and Welcome 0:00 - Thank you very much for coming to our session on living and learning to eat what teens say. If you don't mind keeping your mute on, we're going to have a really good Q&A session at the end where you can ask lots of questions.

Guest Introductions 0:31 - Hello, I am Cali Turk, I am the co-founder of a local advocacy group called REAL and I am joined today by Serena Chen who is finishing her senior year at Saint Francis High School and is also the founder of Neurodiversity. We are supposed to also be joined by Ava Miller who is a Palo Alto Unified alumna who finished up through middle college and was a Gunn High School student. She's currently a freshman at Sarah Lawrence College and we will hope she will pop in later to share her points of view as well.

Who is REAL 1:14 - Before we jumped in I just wanted to make sure you knew who REAL is and why we are doing this presentation. REAL stands for Resilience and Engagement for Every Learner and we support 2e or twice exceptional kids by building bridges between their educators and their parents. We spend a lot of our time with educators raising awareness about the fact that there are twice exceptional kids and helping to develop their understanding of how to serve these kids better. We provide resources so that school can be a place that 2e learners can be successful and go to school and feel successful every day. For parents we disseminate and create 2e resources online and in person because we want to help parents be able to advocate for their children more effectively and support their 2e kids primarily at school but also at home.

Agenda 2:09 - Our plan for today is I'm going to do a very brief overview of what 2e is in case any of you who've come aren't familiar with the term. Then I'm going to do a quick overview of the blog series that we put together and sort of why we did it, what motivated us, and who our bloggers are. I'm going to then go over the key themes from the blog series and Serena is going to be hopping in and out and letting us know her points of view for the things that we came up with. Then we will have time for Q&A - I have a few questions for Serena and Ava if she's able to join us, and we'll open up for you as well to have questions. We will close with some ideas on how you could get involved or if you have a teenager who's twice exceptional how they could get involved with our work.

Definition of 2e 2:59 - Before we jump in I just want to make sure everyone is working with the same definition of what it means to be 2e or twice exceptional. Twice exceptional kids are the ones who have really distinguishing strength - so they may have a high ability in a specific area or they may have high abilities in many areas or they may be really creative or have great potential. But they also have very complex challenges so they might have a specific learning disability like dyslexia or dysgraphia or dyscalculia, they might have ADHD, they might have a general anxiety disorder or autism. So when you see these two things together that's a twice exceptional student.

3:44 - It's very interesting because I actually listened to a presentation yesterday from the Schwab Learning Center at Stanford that hosted a young woman who is in her mid-20s and is dyslexic and she admitted that she went most of her life believing that you could not have both strengths and challenges. So this is a common misunderstanding that people have and it's really these very complex children that help us see that these things can go together and it can be a complicated life when they do.

The Blog Series Purpose 4:12 - As part of our work at REAL we really wanted to highlight the voices of the twice exceptional and neurodivergent. We hosted a panel last fall for the Stanford Neurodiversity Project where we were able to have six different neurodivergent youth speak out about their experiences and we really realized the power of having them be able to really say in their own voices what their experiences are like. We felt like it would be really helpful for parents and teachers to hear their stories and to get specific tips about what they could do to support them. So we launched our living and learning 2e blog series and really wanted to give these kids a voice in what their experiences have been like.

5:15 - Once we had the blog posts - we have about six right now - we wanted to look across all of the posts and see what were some of the themes that came out that were common across all of our bloggers. Because there really are quite a lot of common themes that we can learn from by listening to each of their voices and then putting them together. We wrote an article for 2e News that really outlines in detail what those themes are and if you'd like to see that article you can go to 2e News and read it - you have to register but it's free. This presentation really draws on this article.

Who are the Bloggers - Chris 5:54 - Before we jump into the themes I wanted you to know who you're hearing from. We are so proud of each of these young people for sharing their stories so authentically and openly. They are each just such interesting and amazing people that I couldn't be more excited to tell you about them.

6:24 - Our very first blogger used a pseudonym named Chris and Chris is a former PAUSD student who just is a super analytical deep thinker, really a kind-hearted young man. He runs role-playing games for younger students but he has really debilitating anxiety stemming from his autism and his ADHD and also just a lot of school trauma that he experienced through the years from people not really understanding his complex learning needs. For each of the bloggers we sort of pulled out one key quote that we thought really highlighted something special about their contribution. Chris's key contribution was: "If I've scored well on an exam but I'm behind in assignments, allow the flexibility to just let me move on since I've shown mastery of the content."

7:23 - One thing you might notice as we go through these is that a lot of the advice we have is for the teachers, but as a parent I think for you to understand what the experience has been like for the kids so that when you go to talk to your children's teachers you have a deeper perspective on what is needed and to be building that bridge for your student to do better in school.

Who are the Bloggers - Mike 7:50 - One of our other bloggers and our youngest blogger is Mike who went through Palo Alto for K through eight and just started at a private high school for ninth grade. Mike is someone I've known since he was five and is an incredibly eloquent young person. I actually interviewed him for his blog post because he has dysgraphia so he didn't feel as comfortable just doing the basic writing, and his ability to just think on his feet eloquently is just incredible. He's also really incredibly imaginative and musical and performs with several different bands.

8:27 - Mike has both ADHD and dysgraphia and he being a little younger was more thinking about his own identity. "I don't want me being smart or me having disabilities to be part of who I am in any way possible - I'd rather just ignore them." Mike was definitely more at that "I just want to blend in" stage of life.

Who are the Bloggers - Lucy 8:55 - Lucy is a Nueva School alumna and she's actually a current Stanford student. She was on our panel at the Stanford Neurodiversity Project and I learned so much from her about what it can take to support someone who has high anxiety and perfectionism. Lucy is a very creative writer, she knows several languages, she talks about just kind of her endless boundless curiosity and need to learn. But she very late in high school, maybe even before she went to college, learned that she was autistic. So she had struggled with anxiety for a long time but then finally received her autism diagnosis.

9:39 - She reflected: "I've learned to leverage my strengths, remain aware of my weaknesses, set realistic expectations and find the middle ground between soul-crushing rigidity and chaotic spontaneity." One of the things I really loved about Lucy was she said now that she knows herself better, she's fine if she goes to bed at 9:00 PM even if it's not what everyone else is doing - that's what she needs to do. So I really respect her advocacy for herself and her needs.

Who are the Bloggers - Noah 10:10 - Noah is a young man who lives out in Pacifica and attends Summit Public Schools and he's just this really dynamic person. I highly encourage you to read all of these blogs - Noah's got just a dynamic personality. He's really into cars and photography and extreme sports. He has both autism and ADHD and I really loved this quote where he just really brings it to life: "I hope that everywhere I go I can help others realize that 2e people aren't a joke but more like super humans held back by mental chains." You can just see him working to break those chains.

Who are the Bloggers - Ava 10:52 - Ava who I hope may still join us is a Palo Alto Unified alumna who finished her junior and senior years with middle college. She's currently a first year student at Sarah Lawrence College. She really loves environmental studies and writing and hiking and embroidery but she really was struggling a lot with anxiety and perfectionism and she didn't realize that was what was happening for her midway through high school.

11:26 - She really commented on the change that can happen for 2e learners: "Being a twice exceptional learner was a quality that got me into accelerated reading and advanced math classes because in elementary school learning is about learning. Sadly this is something I found changes over time." That's one of the key things we'll talk about is how the 2e experience from these six bloggers' perspective changed over time.

Who are the Bloggers - Serena 11:49 - Our sixth last but definitely not least blogger is Serena who's with us today and she was a public school student in the Cupertino system from kindergarten through eighth grade. As I mentioned before she is graduating from Saint Francis High School this year. I definitely encourage you to read Serena's blog post - you'll hear all about how much she loves her trumpet and music, how important running is to her, and just really great language. She's the founder of a website called Neurodiversity which she'll talk about later and also has ADHD.

12:30 - Her quote that I will highlight is: "Just because a student may appear outwardly high achieving doesn't necessarily mean that they don't need any extra support. We've learned to mask this and often compensate in terrible ways." Serena, did you want to add anything to your introduction?

Serena's Introduction 12:49 - Yeah sure, so thank you Cali for the introduction and also the invitation to be here. I'm Serena, I have ADHD and I'm a senior at Saint Francis. Prior to that I attended Murdock Portal Elementary School and Miller Middle School. I've been playing trumpet for eight years now and I've played in multiple ensembles throughout high school. I also had the privilege of speaking at the Stanford Neurodiversity Summit last fall. As Cali mentioned I'm also the founder of the Neurodiversity online resource platform and student community which I launched due to the stigma and also lack of accessible neurodiverse student groups around. Yeah, I'm very excited to be here today.

Theme 1: What Does It Feel Like to Be 2e 13:33 - We'll jump into the themes now and the first one is around what does it feel like to be 2e. We have a whole format of list of questions that we ask everyone to answer and one of them is like what does that feel like for you. One of the things we found is that it really evolves over time for most of the kids.

13:51 - In elementary school a lot of our bloggers felt like they were strong students or they received a lot of praise for their ability to do certain academic things. Some of them felt like it was just normal because when they're that age they just don't think that much about how they're fitting in in the context of other kids. But then several started to mention as the time went by how misunderstood they felt - a lot of teachers not understanding why they were behaving a certain way or why they could do some things really easily and not other things really easily or maybe their family misunderstood them in their behavior.

14:30 - In the middle grade years and early high school they started to feel more frustrated, they started to feel a lot more negative feelings. They may be more paralyzed by the workload, some of them started to feel really hopeless or their anxiety spiked. They would start to think they were stupid because they couldn't do things maybe as well as they had in the past or they weren't able to keep up with the workload that was happening. Sometimes they would get referred for special education services and they would just feel embarrassed about tapping into those resources.

15:05 - As they move through the late high school years and some of them into college you actually see many of the bloggers coming to understand their unique set of strengths and needs, learning how to advocate for themselves, really selecting and designing situations that support them in their personal development and growth and having more confidence to speak up for themselves and others. So there's this sense that they have become more empowered, more hopeful, more fully integrated as whole people.

15:35 - One thing we did really note is that the boys - we had three boys and three girls - and the boys were diagnosed earlier. Almost all three of the girls, and this is not uncommon, were not diagnosed with a learning difference until they were in high school or later. Really getting the diagnosis seemed to help the three female bloggers to understand themselves better and understand the experiences that they had had. That's something we'll actually be presenting about on the May 15th session - we will be having a whole session on neurodiversity through the female lens if that's something that is interesting to anyone who's here today.

16:25 - I have a quote on this topic from Lucy: "Just knowing that I was autistic gave me the confidence to make decisions based on what was best for me rather than what seemed normal." Serena, I don't know if you want to weigh in on this particular theme about how your experience evolved over time?

Serena on Diagnosis 16:50 - Yeah, so definitely for me personally diagnosis was the aha moment that I never seemed to actually achieve in school. Neurodiversity wasn't the negative sentence that the school administration or my parents perceived it as when first presented with the concept. It wasn't actually a barrier - it's honestly just opened up so many doors to me both academically and personally. That's really what has shaped my identity and perspective going forward. So I definitely agree a lot with what Lucy said in the quote.

Theme 2: What It Takes to Be the Best Teacher 17:26 - The second theme is around what it takes to be the best teacher for one of our twice exceptional learners. We saw a lot of common themes across the blog post about what really made a teacher one of the best teachers. The characteristics that came up were that they were very flexible and kind, understanding, respectful, non-threatening, non-judgmental and supportive.

17:52 - These things seem like they would be great characteristics for any child with their teacher, but I think they really mean a lot to twice exceptional kids especially who are facing more bumps in the road. Kids who are neurotypical might be able to slide by with a teacher who doesn't do some of these things, but for a twice exceptional kid these things are just really that much more important. Actually these things are supported by research about creating environments for 2e and neurodivergent learners. It was amazing really to see how well the bloggers' characteristics list lined up with what the research says these kids really need.

18:31 - Some of the actions that these best teachers took were to modify or shorten homework - so like maybe you don't need to do 20 of the same math problems, maybe doing five and showing you know how to do those five is enough. Extending deadlines - so you know not taking off points if you can't make a specific deadline but having a deadline maybe at the end of the quarter where you have a chance to get everything caught up. They really appreciated when the assignments are very clear with clear instructions. They want a teacher who will answer questions and who will talk with the students.

19:11 - Some of the other ones are really about preventing ridicule. A lot of these kids talk not just about being bullied by other kids but by other adults in the schools - just rude and unencouraging comments from other teachers or other staff. So the best teachers really help to navigate some of that and then they also celebrate their achievements. You know so when the child does something well they really notice that and really support the child and appreciating that.

19:43 - It's always best when these things are implemented for everyone in the classroom. Most 2e and neurodivergent kids don't really want special treatment, they don't necessarily want to have to have accommodation. So it's great if we can just create learning environments that build many of these things in.

19:59 - The other thing that really came up from at least two of our bloggers, Serena and Noah, is the power of having a teacher who is neurodivergent themselves. Having especially, I think in both cases of both Serena and Noah, they had teachers who had ADHD who really helped them to understand themselves and able to give much more clear instructions and make a connection with them.

Help Proactively 20:28 - One of the parts of this theme is that you have to be able to help proactively. This is a key thing that all the bloggers really ask for in terms of what makes the teacher really the best teacher. The reason students say this is because a lot of them don't reach up for help, especially in those middle school and early high school years, because they are embarrassed sometimes about the struggles they're having or they feel like in the context that they're in it's not acceptable to need help or they might feel ashamed that they need it or they're just afraid what will happen.

21:05 - I think we need to keep this in mind that it's not easy for students always to reach up for help and so we need to be encouraging teachers to reach out to these kinds of students. I think Ava said this so nicely when she said: "My teachers didn't make me feel like the letters on my transcript defined my self-worth. They reached out their caring hands and offered an amount of help I had never experienced before." That was her reflection on her middle college experience - that willingness of the teachers to reach out to her made such a difference. Because when she was at Gunn High School before she did middle college she was put into one of the special ed programs and she never felt comfortable there, and then she got to move to an environment where the teachers did much more reaching out and making sure that she was doing well.

Serena on Supportive Teachers 22:04 - One thing I also noticed was some of my most supportive teachers in the past - they didn't actively try to make fun of students - they were all eccentric in their own way which they really embraced. So it didn't make me feel like a huge outlier or anything like that. As for neurodivergent teachers, I went to Interlochen this past summer and I had a trumpet teacher who just literally just showed me what to do instead of giving me steps telling me what to do where I would get confused within the steps.

22:37 - For example, he told me to play with an open throat which I didn't really understand because previous teachers I would always assume it was like opening a door with a doorknob or something and then wondering like I don't have a doorknob in my throat, how do I open it. So instead he demonstrated the actions that would allow me to achieve the same effect which worked a lot better than just giving me a lot of random steps. Yeah, he was also neurodivergent so he basically understood the way that I would receive the information better and that was just what really helped to change everything for that summer at least.

23:16 - I loved what you said about that in your blog post about the scream. It was like it was just the right thing for him to say to you, not just trying to explain the steps but to be like this is what it should feel like. Yeah, like the feeling and telling you what to do is completely different. I will perceive it completely differently even though it will always end up in the same result, but I perceive it differently so one way will not always end up in the other result.

23:47 - I mentioned earlier that I went to a presentation yesterday from the Schwab Learning Center at Stanford and they had this young woman who was dyslexic and she also commented on how valuable it was to her when she worked with or had a teacher who also was dyslexic because it just gives you that opportunity to relate to one another in a different way.

Theme 3: Advice for Teachers 24:08 - There was also then a set of advice for teachers. We asked our bloggers what advice would they have for teachers and also what one thing could a teacher do that would really help. We've talked about this one a little bit which is that listening to students - really ask them as individuals what they need help with and how to remove the barriers to learning.

24:38 - One of the things I love that Serena said, I'll quote you Serena: "It's incredibly important to both discuss our disabilities and how it actually affects us, not just how you think it does. I love this - ADHD goes so much beyond can't sit, can't do work, must go zoom zoom. I hate to break it to you but that's not ADHD, that's my cat."

25:01 - I think that's just so important both as parents and teachers to really listen to these kids when they're talking to us about what they're going through and what their experience of their learning difference is. Because the experience of the learning difference is actually different for each person. Once you understand and are listening more to the child then you can understand what the barriers are and start removing those as much as possible. And also teaching the child how to remove the barriers as well, starting to teach them self-advocacy skills so that they can start thinking about what is in their way and how can they create workarounds or solutions for those problems.

Acknowledge Strengths and Struggles 25:43 - Another thing that you really need to do is acknowledge both that the child has strengths and struggles. So you don't want to invalidate the struggles that they have and you need to understand that even the brightest students can have a learning difference. Those accommodations that they need are actually essential. The accommodations won't necessarily solve all of their challenges but they're really important.

26:14 - Serena also went on to say: "We're not trying to intentionally act out or underperform. Please never jump to conclusions or purposely invalidate our struggles." Mike wanted to note about his dysgraphia that just because he had an accommodation that allowed him to type rather than handwrite assignments, it's not like all of the other problems were magically fixed. Things just aren't designed for me. So you really have to understand that there are those strengths and those struggles and support whatever those accommodations are that the child needs.

Theme 4: Offer Choice and Creative Freedom 27:00 - The next one is about providing choice and creative freedom. I think this one is really key and possibly one of the most important things that we can do is to have some flexibility and give some choice. This is because it really helps kids explore their interests. They need to have more choice in their projects and they need to be able to demonstrate what they know beyond just a standard essay or a test.

27:30 - Often we aren't differentiating the exit points for students to show what they know and we really should be. We should be giving kids more opportunities to explore what they're good at and then show that they've mastered something through a strength. Ava said: "I learned so much more when I was allowed to do a project I was motivated to complete. It's challenging and sometimes impossible to accommodate every student's needs but making it clear that you're there to help come up with ways for students to feel confident in the material is crucial." I think you also see more motivation and more self-directed learning when we give more choice and creative freedom.

Clear Instructions 28:08 - We did talk about this a little bit earlier which is about providing those step-by-step and clear instructions. This is so important because a lot of times the kids also need to see sample work and sample product so they know what they're aiming for. Mike really noted this when he said: "The best teachers are the ones who communicate clearly and make sure I understand what I need to be doing." In the end that's going to help everyone in the class if everyone knows what they're aiming for.

28:40 - We talked about this earlier too, just the importance of checking in. Some of the kids who have ADHD or autism or anxiety may not be tracking all of the instructions that are given in class verbally as well as some of the other kids. So it's just important to check in and make sure that they understand what the expectations are.

Focus on Mastery 29:07 - We've touched on this a little bit but we really want to focus on student mastery. What is our goal, what do we want kids to know and be able to do, and where are we putting in these false barriers that are just hoops they have to jump through. You really want to adopt policies that use more of a standards-based grading approach that really reflect the mastery of learning objectives instead of just focusing on the completion of homework assignments.

29:31 - You could do things like ask to have homework excused when mastery has been demonstrated through an assessment or a final project of some sort. Ask for shortened assignments, ask if a teacher could accept late homework without penalty whenever possible. Chris reflected on this that sometimes though when they're given more time, even more days to turn in assignments doesn't help because they're perpetually behind which inhibits learning content. So he requested: "If I've scored well on an exam but I'm behind on assignments, allow the flexibility to let me move on."

30:08 - I think that's something we need to work on too - why do we have these deadlines, when do kids need to learn about deadlines. We all have to deal with deadlines sometimes, so how do we build in the ability to learn about deadlines without having so many deadlines that all we end up feeling is that we're on a treadmill of being behind. Because I think we all know in real life there are a lot of times when you can negotiate deadlines or you get into a project, you realize it's going to take longer, you go back and you extend whatever that's going to take. There are times when you have to do things on time, so how do we introduce that kind of flexibility into the school environment as well.

Advocate for Students 30:40 - The last key tip they have was really asking teachers please to advocate for them. This is also for parents too - if you suspect that your child has an undiagnosed learning disability or some kind of mental wellness challenge, please advocate on their behalf for an evaluation. This is even for high schoolers because so often learning differences and learning needs of twice exceptional learners, especially for girls, are not caught early enough in their school life.

31:11 - We can think we've got to high school, oh there can't be learning differences, but a lot of times some of the things that have been challenging through the years are due to the learning difference and the child has been able to mask it well enough. Then the schoolwork demands, the social demands, the extracurricular demands of high school kind of create a wall and a new barrier that wasn't there before. So it's really important to keep your eye out for this and to advocate if your child needs an evaluation. Also for teachers to keep their eye out because sometimes it's the parents who are presenting the barrier to getting the evaluation and sometimes we need the teachers to be the advocate on behalf of their students.

Serena on Advocating 32:00 - That pretty much captured all I would have wanted to say but I think one of the parts I really wanted to emphasize was advocating for learners. Because sometimes it's such an unfamiliar concept when you first present it to parents that if you don't explain it well enough they're not going to know what they're getting into. Then they won't want to go into that because of stigma or just general unfamiliarity with that subject. It's really important to just break it down and then make sure that both parties know that it's not anything negative, it's just something that will make your life a lot easier instead of something that is a barrier, a limitation or something that makes you any less than.

32:43 - Yeah, because I think what you all found too is sometimes it's what gives you your special capabilities as well and your special viewpoints and empathy in life.

Theme 5: Equity 32:58 - Another key theme that really came up across the blog post is around equity. Several of our bloggers really emphasized a call to action around equity. Of the six contributors to our series, three graduated from private high schools, one graduated from our dual enrollment program, one from a charter school, and sadly one of our bloggers hasn't graduated.

33:27 - I think what they all kind of noted is that not everyone can afford a private school. Not everyone lives in an area where there is a school that's going to support learning differences or 2e students. There may be kids who live in a community that doesn't offer a better fit charter or dual enrollment program, or your parents may not have the resources, either time or financial or English language skills to advocate year after year after year on your behalf.

34:00 - The teens recognize this and really Noah summed this up best saying: "We really need more awareness on who and what a 2e student is as too many people are living their lives believing that they are just dumb or don't have what it takes. These people need help not to correct their problems but to overcome them."

34:20 - Ava really was talking about inequity - if we're not helping these kids then what are we missing. We're missing a lot in our society and our world because 2e and neurodivergent learners offer insane amounts of creativity, the ability to see things in a way that regular people can't, empathy, determination, enough knowledge to fill a library and layer after layer of unseen talent. It gives me chills to think that these are the things that the teens in our blog series are thinking about.

Neurodiversity Platform 34:54 - I think it leads really well into letting Serena talk a little bit about the work she's doing. Because what we're seeing is that as these kids become older, as they enter their late teen years and they start to feel more empowered around their own experiences, they really want to be making a difference in the world. Serena, did you want to talk a little bit about neurodiversity?

35:19 - Yeah, so Neurodiversity is a two-part plan on the word neurodiversity. Neuro-diver is basically someone who delves deep into their brain as a neurodivergent individual would, and city is a supportive community of diverse individuals. I like puns so I made that the name. It's an international resource and community platform for neurodivergent students that's also run by neurodivergent students because I didn't see a lot of those around.

35:47 - It features support and community chat rooms, neurodivergent peer and adult mentorships, creativity showcases, education groups for allies and resource and guide sheets. There's also an Instagram page in which I recount personal experiences and share advice through a variety of cat Photoshop stickers and also words. Basically I just wanted to share the resources I wish I had access to when seeking a diagnosis and also create a community around that to mitigate the stigma and also access for other students who may also be seeking a diagnosis but don't know where to start.

36:22 - If any of you are interested in checking out or you think your child will be interested in joining our student community or having a mentorship, the website is www.neardiver.city.org and there's a considerable amount of cats and cat Photoshops on the website to welcome you too if you're interested in that sort of thing. But yeah, would love to welcome you. There are always a few quotes that stand out from everybody's blog post but I've already said this one - "that's not ADHD that's my cat" - I love that. I love all your cat Photoshopping. She's in the back right now actually staring at a dove outside.

Q&A Session Begins 37:04 - Well now we'd like to open this up for question and answer. For the question and answer I'm actually going to stop sharing so we can all see each other. If you don't mind putting your question in the chat, if you have any questions for me about the blog series or about any of the themes that we've covered, if you have any questions for Serena please feel free to weigh in. I actually have a couple of questions for Serena and I'm going to get us kicked off.

What Resonated Most 37:41 - Serena, now that you've seen how the themes played out across the bloggers, what resonates most for you? I think the "strong student" part in elementary school and then also having everything crash down in middle school - that resonated most with me because that's the exact same situation that I went through. I think middle school and high school is the age where your former comfort compensating methods stop working as well and then everything just kind of catches up to you. You're not sure what to do with it but we don't always want to open up because we're afraid of punishment or any other negative consequences that admitting that you're struggling will entail rather than just saying "oh hey you're struggling with this, why don't we get an evaluation."

38:15 - Yeah, we're just afraid of what will happen if we do in fact reach out for help. And then also teachers who make it a conducive space for asking questions in class versus teachers who crack down on you for asking questions because it seems like you weren't paying attention - that also makes a world of a difference. Because for the former then we would be more inclined to ask questions rather than just spending all our time on figuring everything out ourselves and then still not figuring it out, which is definitely something I have had a lot of experience with.

38:43 - Another thing that really resonated with me was just the benefits that diagnosis allows as well as the self-discovery and realization that comes with it and how important it is to just know. And then how much of a difference access to support can be, be that from teachers or parents. All the themes were definitely really relatable but those were just a few of the ones that stuck out most.

39:06 - Yeah, I mean I'm curious, this is off the top of my head, but were there any that you were like "nah that's not me"? I thought most of them were pretty relevant other than the identity part which I feel like I completely identified with it because it's shaped so much of what I used to not know and what I know now. So I think that was the only part that did not resonate but to each their own of course.

39:35 - It was just interesting because you know Mike was only 14, coming out of middle school when we wrote that blog post and just in a different place developmentally. Oh definitely, yeah in middle school I would be totally afraid of that also.

What the School Sees 39:54 - Is there anything that's important to you personally that didn't come up in the presentation? I think the things that the school sees is just the surface level of everything else that's going on. For example, this was mentioned in the presentation but if students are acting out or not performing well there's more to the story than just laziness or disrespect or whatnot. I've also had schools that framed diagnosis as a burden so that also made it very hard to get one. So I was diagnosed in high school and then I did not have a smooth experience for attaining that diagnosis because when I tried to reach out for help I was being overachieving and then just told to drop my hardest courses to compensate instead.

40:31 - But in middle school I was pushed for a diagnosis because all my symptoms lined up with the typical Caucasian male hyperactivity cat zooming type. But in high school I realized that's probably not what I should be doing, so that's when the masking starts coming up and that's what made diagnosis a lot harder because I finally stopped aligning with that presentation. But then I also realized that okay I kind of need help and then that not aligning with that presentation barred me from receiving that. So that was pretty important to me but yeah, I kind of wanted to go into a little bit more depth about that.

The Label 41:09 - I have a few more questions here but Jane asked a question, do you mind if I throw in one that is not from our list from before? Jane is wondering how do you overcome the "I am normal" kind of feeling and why do I need to get a label to get assistance?

41:33 - Okay, so that was something I definitely struggled with in middle school and that was also a big part of why the evaluation did not happen in kindergarten or middle school. I would say it just takes a lot of time. After a certain point you have to accept that okay I'm trying my hardest but there's something that's limiting me in a sense. But not limiting because I'm dumb or any less than or something, but because I am capable of doing it but I don't know how to do it. That "I don't know how" is something that can be solved by tutoring or prep classes or extra book studying and stuff - there's a deeper story to that.

42:10 - For the other part of the question, why do I need a label to get assistance? Well I wouldn't necessarily call it a label because without that label, without your different condition, I was given so many other labels - just disrespectful, not caring, or dumb, or anything pretty callous like that. I think that label is something that you will come to define yourself and no one else can define that for you. I think that's really important when you're trying to overcome that stage of "hey I don't really want to be identified as that."

42:47 - That label is just something that will allow you to achieve so much more. When you finally get the support you need you'll realize that hey, not everything has to be so hard or I don't have to spend 19 hours on my homework and sleep two hours to just get a simple understanding. But I know the label part is definitely a big fear for a lot of parents and students, especially at younger ages. When you get older I think people just stop caring because we're just too tired. But definitely the label is something that you define for yourself, it's what you make of it.

43:23 - I'll just say try to pursue what you enjoy the most and then that will also make you kind of forget about the negative connotations of the label if any. Because when you're pursuing what you truly enjoy you'll find that doesn't hold you back at all. So yeah, I hope that was helpful in some way.

Double-Edged Sword of Labels 43:47 - That's awesome and I think one of the things that came up again in this session I attended is there's a double-edged sword to labels. Because labels can be stigmatizing in some environments and kids can feel marginalized or people make like you said these assumptions about what ADHD means without diving deep into what it means for Serena - what does it mean for Serena to have ADHD. Because people make these assumptions, but labels are in our educational system as it stands right now the path to get services and accommodations. So it's a double-edged sword and it's tricky in that way.

44:25 - I thought it was interesting this dyslexic woman I heard speak - she did not use her label a lot. What she did was she knew she was dyslexic and then she used it as a way to understand herself and what her needs are so that she could talk about what her learning needs were. So that as an adult she says she rarely tells anybody she's dyslexic but she knows how to talk about what she needs to be successful in a group or what she needs to be successful in a certain environment or what tools she should bring with her to be more successful at a meeting.

44:55 - I think the label can help the individual to understand their needs better and then we just have to work on focusing on kids' strengths so that we can take away some of that stigma that comes with the label that we all wish did not come with the label.

45:09 - Yeah, I think going off of that, you don't have to disclose to anyone if you're not comfortable with it. But I think it's really important to just know what you have to work with and then also understand how you work with things. Yeah, for me the label is something that will prevent other people from getting really mad at me for example.

Students of Color 45:34 - I noticed that Stacy then asked how we as parents encourage all students to not worry about the label and I think this is very tricky as a parent. But there's a lot around what we can do in terms of emphasizing the strengths that come with your child's unique neurodivergent makeup and a lot that we need to do to really focus on their strengths. It's that 80-20 rule - they should spend at least 80% of their lives in their strengths area not focused on the disability.

45:57 - I think it depends on the age of your child too Stacy, and so I don't know if you're coming to lunch and learn but we can certainly talk about that more or you can reach out to me separately. I think it depends on if the child receives the label in elementary school, middle school or high school because they're just different developmental stages. It can be harder I think to get the label in middle school or entering middle school - there's so much going on around your identity. So it really does depend a little bit, so be happy to talk Stacy about that with you.

46:41 - Then I noticed Stacy also asked do we feel that we see more students of color in this category. I'm not sure if you mean 2e - I mean I think we do see undoubtedly there's a disproportionate number of kids of color who are given learning disability diagnoses for sure. There's a concept of person-environment fit that I think we really are challenged by in our education system today. Many of our education organizations are not designed for kids who have certain behaviors, certain strengths, certain interests, certain ways of expressing themselves in the world.

47:13 - So then when behaviors become what the adults in their lives don't want, they get labeled with a learning difference and so I think that is definitely a core societal issue that we need to look at. I think there's a lot more that we at REAL want to learn about helping students of color because I think what tends to happen is their behaviors get labeled as a challenge more so than other kids. So sometimes they're inappropriately diagnosed or they are just really misunderstood in so many ways and their strengths do not get emphasized in school like they should be.

Social Friendship Impact 48:03 - Somebody else wanted to know how that ADHD diagnosis impacted your social friendship side if at all and how you've dealt with that. Honestly I feel like it's changed throughout middle school and high school as things do. Before middle school it was more like I would be seeking attention and then the validation that I did not receive in classes I would achieve from friends. Because I mean with ADHD it comes with spontaneity and also humor.

48:32 - But I think now it becomes a lot easier for me to connect with other people and make friends because there's no set topic that we have to talk about. I'll literally just talk with you about whatever and if we can keep a conversation going then that's the vibe and then that's how the friendship continues. I think not having to limit yourself to a set formula to making friends or anything - that has really helped me with the friendship area. But that's also something that you have to figure out - it's not something that comes naturally but it also doesn't because you're not sure whether something is too much or if you'll scare them away or anything. But most of the time I think people are nice and yeah, that's a really scattered answer.

Orchestra and Friendships 49:27 - Do you think it's helped Serena friendship-wise that you do have a real strength in music and you've been able to join different bands and orchestras and participate in music programs in terms of finding people who have like interests or thinking or will understand you better? Oh yes, yes that has definitely - orchestra, so I'm part of the Golden State Orchestra and that's where a lot of my closest friends I have found there. It's just the things that make the friendship so special is the little spontaneous things and I think that I contribute to a lot of the spontaneous things that come up which makes our connection really a lot stronger.

50:10 - I think it's just such a good real world example of how when we really help twice exceptional kids figure out the strength that they have and really their interest and really go with that passion and find a way to nurture it, then they'll meet other kids who have that common strength or interest area. That's really the basis for a lot of friendship for your whole life. I think that just emphasizes the importance of giving kids room to really focus on their strengths and their interests because it's so important both for your self-esteem but also your social world - that's where you make and find your people.

Formal Diagnosis Question 50:56 - A question that came in I think is more for me - is there any formal diagnosis for 2e or is anyone with autism ADHD twice exceptional. I think that's a great question and I'd say one of the things that we at REAL say is I am not going to tell you that your child is twice exceptional or not. We know that the definition of twice exceptional kids are those kids who are very bright, very capable, high ability in some area and also have a learning difference. There is not a formal diagnosis in the DSM-5, it's not a formal thing.

51:29 - I will say our neuropsych for my daughter who is twice exceptional, she did put it in the report like "Katie is a twice exceptional autistic" blah blah blah. So some neuropsychs are very familiar with it and can help you understand it and some aren't as familiar with it. We always just say if the things we're saying resonate for you and your family then great - join us, learn more, be part of our community.

51:59 - There are some communities where they still identify for gifted and talented programs and in that case you might then have a child who qualified for a gifted and talented program and also has a learning difference. A lot of the things that we believe in and are arguing and advocating for around strength-based learning would really be good for everyone. The challenge is that there are a lot of myths and misconceptions around whether you can be a very bright high achieving child and also have a learning difference or be in special education and also have a brightness or a strength in a core area.

52:38 - A lot of people just don't understand that these things can co-exist and so our goal is to really help people break through some of the myths around that. Because even this woman who was in her mid-20s yesterday who has dyslexia and graduated from Stanford didn't feel like she could have both - didn't know that was her own personal experience, she didn't even know that she could have both. So it's important that we recognize this and build awareness around this life experience.

Blog Series Availability 53:16 - I see Beth asked are the students still blogging and is this series available. Thank you so much - the series is still available and I'm going to share my screen again and show you one thing while I ask my last question for Serena.

Serena's Future Plans 53:45 - Do you mind sharing your hopes, dreams and plans for your own future? Because I'm sure now that everyone's gotten to know you better they want to know what you have in mind. Yeah, so I will be attending Columbia University in the City of New York this fall and I've actually struggled over this decision for a long while because I'm super attached to routine and kind of terrified of leaving everything behind right as I've started to get comfortable with it, just like I did in middle school.

54:04 - But I think with this diagnosis I have now and the support I've gained along the way, I'll be much better equipped to take on something new than I was previously. So at Columbia I'll definitely continue to study my music and neurodiversity advocacy endeavors there. Really not too sure I'll be studying yet but hopefully it'll be something with psychology, music and then maybe branching into some business administration. But yeah, no matter what I will keep working on and expanding Neurodiversity and I know that these passions are what I truly do want to continue for as long as I can.

54:40 - I just think you'll find so many more ways to advocate as you move through your life and through different environments. You have such a strong voice and I hope you bring that everywhere you go. You just have so many powerful things to share and say.

Getting Involved 54:59 - Kind of to Beth's point, if you want to get involved with the project we definitely welcome more contributions from teen bloggers. We have a very easy to use template that they just have to answer questions and then we help them shape it into the final version. Or if they're not comfortable writing the responses, especially those kids who are dyslexic or just have dysgraphia, we can interview them and then we can draft the post and they can review it. You can contact me at cali@realpaloalto.org if you have a child who you think would be interested in participating.

Final Advice 55:45 - I had given you a set of questions and we didn't get to all the questions that I wanted to ask you and I don't know if there were any of those that you were dying to answer. I can answer the advice one perhaps. Yeah, so I basically said this presentation is being attended mostly by parents - what one piece of advice would you give them in working with their twice exceptional or neurodivergent children?

56:09 - Yeah, I think what I wanted to say for that was just listen to your child and just try to understand them. I know there's usually a lot of pressure about academics, doing well, getting into a good college - I know because I come from a school district that was like that and a culture that sort of internalizes that as well. So there's a lot of pressure for that but I think oftentimes, especially for neurodivergent learners, when parents see something unfavorable they freak out and try to stop that behavior immediately either by punishment or active discouragement which is not ideal and which is also why I kind of hid my struggles growing up.

56:43 - Basically don't stress too much about the little things and take things one step at a time because neurodivergency is dynamic. Something that you can't do right now doesn't mean you cannot do it later. This sounds like super generic advice but everything will work out in the end and there's no single path to success. Your child will succeed but what works for your typical child won't necessarily have the same effect on your neurodivergent child as it would for a neurotypical or it might not work as well.

57:05 - But it really is just a journey of discovery and most of the time we won't know how to navigate it either. But it would be amazing if we could be just supported in the process of figuring that out. It doesn't matter if you also don't know what we're doing but the support from someone we trust and we know that will want the best for us really just means the world.

Closing 57:35 - That's awesome, thank you so much Serena for being here and for sharing your insights. I always learn something new every time I hear you speak or read what you've written or talk to you. Jane has a question about supports you've gotten that are helpful but what I'm gonna do is Serena if you're willing to come to the lunch and learn we'll move that question into the lunch and learn because I'm supposed to wrap this up now and encourage everyone to go to the lunch and learn. You should have the links to the lunch and learn in the email that schedule you received or back at the original website. So thanks everyone for coming, it was great to have you here and hopefully we'll see some of you over at our lunch and learn. Bye!